Out of warranty concerns about Tesla

[Brando]

Porsche provides racing parts with factory support for new cars as well as older models.

Started in 1931, so have over 85 years to develop their business. Tesla first Roadsters in 2008. Everything is much more complex today - regulations and crash test didn't even exist in the 1930s. Give them some time. Very few can afford to tinker with $100,000 cars (or even $35,000 cars) How much is a racing Porsche? and of course you'd have to include manuals at that price, especially if you want your Porsches to win anything.

 

[Brando]

Really? Well then, I guess a friend who spent ~$100k on a 996 GT3 and then about that much again on a pile of Porsche RSR parts that he installed himself didn't get your memo. His home garage is better equipped than a lot of professional shops.

"Car guys" who like to pick up a wrench come at all income levels. DIY isn't always about "I can't afford to hire a pro."

I said "self repair" not racing. And your friend just proves my point. He got the Porsche because he wanted to work on it. Model S just not that kind of car, yet anyway. I have always done my own car work. Helped me to only have bought 2 cars, Saab 99 and 900. If I didn't do the work myself, I couldn't/wouldn't have afforded nor kept my current 900 SPG Turbo for 27 years. So I understand. I took GM "engine management unit" classes just to learn/understand computerized engine control in 1991 in California.
Also went to Saab conventions (Ohio and Washington) and talks about their "systems". No, I'm not a mechanic, just a working stiff. Both cars were bought used. Still think the Saab driver/interior is one of the best designs ever (control positions, including great seats and front visibility - lacks rear visibility).

Anyway, all the luck with your autos, you have a lot of choices in today's world.

 

[Red Sage]

Porsche provides racing parts with factory support for new cars as well as older models.

I guess that explains the giant plaster version of Paul Newman at their Los Angeles South Bay proving grounds. Didn't it used to carry a wrench?

EDIT: Nope. I guess it was a flag instead...

Apparently he held a golf club once...?

And maybe a muffler?

And an axe...?

And one time he was REALLY hungry...

But now I'm thinking that maybe he wasn't modeled after Paul Newman after all...

 

[Red Sage]

Dear Customer,

We are sorry to hear that your Model 3 recently failed safety inspection due to a worn tie rod end. Please feel free to schedule an appointment at one of our service centers and we will replace the component free of charge. Regrettably, lead times on suspension components are currently 3-6 months due to supplier issues.


Love,
Tesla

Here, maybe you need to make an appointment with The DEViL...

Tesla Suspension Breakage: It's Not The Crime, It's The Coverup - DailyKanban

 

[internalaudit]

Any progress on Tesla's move towards opening owner's right to repair?

 

[appleguru]

Any progress on Tesla's move towards opening owner's right to repair?

No real progress... just empty promises so far.

I'm a MA resident and have a legal right to Toolbox and service manual access.
So far, I can only access the service manual (by paying tesla exorbitant subscription rates). Tesla will not provide Toolbox Access (despite it being required for many service tasks), and so far won't even sell me the darn Ethernet cable.

On the positive side, Tesla has indicated that they are working on a more user friendly "service" tool that should help... but I'll believe it when I see it, and will reserve judgment until I see how neutered/useless they make it.

 

[obrien28]

No real progress... just empty promises so far.

I'm a MA resident and have a legal right to Toolbox and service manual access.
So far, I can only access the service manual (by paying tesla exorbitant subscription rates). Tesla will not provide Toolbox Access (despite it being required for many service tasks), and so far won't even sell me the darn Ethernet cable.

On the positive side, Tesla has indicated that they are working on a more user friendly "service" tool that should help... but I'll believe it when I see it, and will reserve judgment until I see how neutered/useless they make it.

You can actually buy that ethernet cable now, a third party company that makes the CAN diagnostic cables recently came out with the Fakra to ethernet cable. Link is here

Still doesn’t fix the mess of getting a Toolbox subscription... come on Tesla

 

[appleguru]

You can actually buy that ethernet cable now, a third party company that makes the CAN diagnostic cables recently came out with the Fakra to ethernet cable. Link is here

Still doesn’t fix the mess of getting a Toolbox subscription... come on Tesla

I am aware of this 3rd party cable. Unfortunately, the guy that runs that business has been a bit of a jerk to me, so I would prefer not to give him any more of my money. Is a shame too, as his products are pretty high quality and I'm sure he has invested a few $$$$ in relatively high qty orders of connectors for the Ethernet cables and the TDC.

In the mean time, I've made my own from a 2x2 pinheader. But that doesn't really help me much without Toolbox access unfortunately.

 

[RobertF]

Tesla may be worried about someone getting inside the car and possibly disturbing/breaking/changing something else and then being held responsible for something someone else caused while under warranty. One of the problems could be how much you need to dismantle/"tear apart" the car to get at stuff. Changing the oil, refrigerant, fluids and even alternators, belts, etc. are relative simple for a DIY job on an ICE car. While I realize many/most of these things are not even on a Tesla, personally I am reluctant to do seemingly simple maintenance myself that could be very involved. I will continue to pay upfront for extended service and warranty.

 

[internalaudit]

Tesla may be worried about someone getting inside the car and possibly disturbing/breaking/changing something else and then being held responsible for something someone else caused while under warranty. One of the problems could be how much you need to dismantle/"tear apart" the car to get at stuff. Changing the oil, refrigerant, fluids and even alternators, belts, etc. are relative simple for a DIY job on an ICE car. While I realize many/most of these things are not even on a Tesla, personally I am reluctant to do seemingly simple maintenance myself that could be very involved. I will continue to pay upfront for extended service and warranty.

I think within warranty, no one will have their EVs serviced by an independent mechanic. Post-warranty, at least Tesla should give an alternative if it cannot lower the labor/parts costs.

From articles on insideevs or electrek, it seems Tesla is able to pin point (with accuracy) if critical components have been tampered with or if it was the car or driver that caused an accident (I'm still not a believer that readings off the machine can always be interpreted with certainty).

 

[bkp_duke]

Tesla may be worried about someone getting inside the car and possibly disturbing/breaking/changing something else and then being held responsible for something someone else caused while under warranty. One of the problems could be how much you need to dismantle/"tear apart" the car to get at stuff. Changing the oil, refrigerant, fluids and even alternators, belts, etc. are relative simple for a DIY job on an ICE car. While I realize many/most of these things are not even on a Tesla, personally I am reluctant to do seemingly simple maintenance myself that could be very involved. I will continue to pay upfront for extended service and warranty.

This is just false. It's INCREDIBLY easy to get to the plugin to access the computer system. One small panel pop off, plug in the cable, done.

 

[Brando]

I completely understand wanting to work on your own car. I have only owned 2 cars since college. Both used, 2 years old '76 Saab 99 and current '89 Saab SPG 900 was one year old. I think the 99 was out of warranty (2year?). Independent garages (CA and WA) California visit great, WA was a disappointment over 20 years ago and I never went back. Dealer once to get some bulbs replaced, never again. (wanted to forget the "dealer replacement" of water pump in the '99, had to sue to get valves repaired in that fiasco) Brakes, fuel pump, coil all I have ever needed to do. Really hard to find honest mechanic when outside of your home town. I get it.

But really, IF you bought a new car why would you not take advantage of the warranty? Sadly, you'd be advised to watch the dealership like a hawk and be very demanding - protect yourself against being cheated. Surely with a Tesla you wouldn't want to self repair drivetrain/battery for at least 8 years, right? Brembo brakes easy enough to do yourself (and they might last 8 years?). Suspension repair out of warranty? IF I had the tools/experience.

Now the AutoPilot and Full Self Driving. These systems is still being designed and test, why the H___ would you try to fix yourself??

Now, when your Tesla is 9 years old, we shall have to wait and see what is going on. Then, based on your skills/experience Tesla might not be the car for you. A 9 year old Tesla would be less the 0.1% of auto fleet. You'll have a lot of other choices. With 3D printing you might be able to build your own electric by then. Even self driving kits might be available.

I just hope our war machine and banksters and government corruption hasn't overwhelmed us all.

 

[obrien28]

Tesla may be worried about someone getting inside the car and possibly disturbing/breaking/changing something else and then being held responsible for something someone else caused while under warranty. One of the problems could be how much you need to dismantle/"tear apart" the car to get at stuff. Changing the oil, refrigerant, fluids and even alternators, belts, etc. are relative simple for a DIY job on an ICE car. While I realize many/most of these things are not even on a Tesla, personally I am reluctant to do seemingly simple maintenance myself that could be very involved. I will continue to pay upfront for extended service and warranty.

What is the deal with everybody being so afraid of Tesla? People talk about this car as if it runs using alien technology taken from Elon's home planet, using unknown hardware and software, the likes of which us "earthlings" have never seen. Having seen the works of this car from stem to stern, that is total and utter hogwash.

Not only is it made by humans right in downtown Silicon Valley, but it is poorly made and kludged together in some spots, using off the shelf hardware and software from manufacturers like Recaro, Daimler, Maxim, TI, Continental, Chevy, Ford, Brembo, and Linux/Ubuntu. Alongside a whole host of standard protocols and hardware interfaces, absolutely nothing about this car is a mystery, heck, half the wiz bang features can be turned on or off using standard bash files with human developer names at the top. This car is not a black box, it is NOT a complete mystery, "beyond" mere mortals to understand and fix. The fact that Tesla has been able to so easily bamboozle you into thinking that you can't do a simple brake job, on a car that literally has the same hardware as a Chevy Camaro SS (minus the badging), is frightening. My motto has always been and still remains, "if a man can make it, then a man can fix it". That said, this car does have a lot of software that might be beyond the skill set of your average auto shop joe who doesn’t know what the OBD in OBDII stands for, but that DOES NOT mean that the rest of us are totally clueless when it comes to electromechanical systems. I've designed, repaired, and maintain much more complex devices than this car uses with relatively ease, if the needed knowledge scares you off, then by all means, pay $150 a labor hour, but don't tell the rest of us that "it's too complicated". I am so sick of everybody telling everybody else what they can and can't do, we get enough of it from family, friends, schools systems, and the government, do we really need it when it comes to our cars too? What happened to the land of the free and home of the brave? It has turned into the land of ne'er do wells and home of the scared.

It's true, in order to be a grease monkey in the 21st century you are going to need a lot more electrical engineering class then mechanical ones, but I think we need to be heavily encouraging (not discouraging) this switch over. Otherwise where will all our electric vehicle mechanics, racers, engineers, and fixers come from? the sky? Tesla's technician monastery? People need to get realistic, this car is pretty cool, but it's not magic.

 

[appleguru]

What is the deal with everybody being so afraid of Tesla? People talk about this car as if it runs using alien technology taken from Elon's home planet, using unknown hardware and software, the likes of which us "earthlings" have never seen. Having seen the works of this car from stem to stern, that is total and utter hogwash.

Not only is it made by humans right in downtown Silicon Valley, but it is poorly made and kludged together in some spots, using off the shelf hardware and software from manufacturers like Recaro, Daimler, Maxim, TI, Continental, Chevy, Ford, Brembo, and Linux/Ubuntu. Alongside a whole host of standard protocols and hardware interfaces, absolutely nothing about this car is a mystery, heck, half the wiz bang features can be turned on or off using standard bash files with human developer names at the top. This car is not a black box, it is NOT a complete mystery, "beyond" mere mortals to understand and fix. The fact that Tesla has been able to so easily bamboozle you into thinking that you can't do a simple brake job, on a car that literally has the same hardware as a Chevy Camaro SS (minus the badging), is frightening. My motto has always been and still remains, "if a man can make it, then a man can fix it". That said, this car does have a lot of software that might be beyond the skill set of your average auto shop joe who doesn’t know what the OBD in OBDII stands for, but that DOES NOT mean that the rest of us are totally clueless when it comes to electromechanical systems. I've designed, repaired, and maintain much more complex devices than this car uses with relatively ease, if the needed knowledge scares you off, then by all means, pay $150 a labor hour, but don't tell the rest of us that "it's too complicated". I am so sick of everybody telling everybody else what they can and can't do, we get enough of it from family, friends, schools systems, and the government, do we really need it when it comes to our cars too? What happened to the land of the free and home of the brave? It has turned into the land of ne'er do wells and home of the scared.

It's true, in order to be a grease monkey in the 21st century you are going to need a lot more electrical engineering class then mechanical ones, but I think we need to be heavily encouraging (not discouraging) this switch over. Otherwise where will all our electric vehicle mechanics, racers, engineers, and fixers come from? the sky? Tesla's technician monastery? People need to get realistic, this car is pretty cool, but it's not magic.

Well said, and fully agree.

Here are a few examples of things I would like to do to my own car, but have not been able to so far due to not having access to Toolbox:

1) Check my forward facing camera alignment/calibration. I have asked the local SC to do this twice so far, with them refusing since the car "isn't throwing any error codes". I think they will finally do this for me... but I should be able to check it myself!
2) Diagnose an intermittent ultrasonic sensor (can only read sensor data with the toolbox software)
3) Repair or replace my front bumper cover assembly. Proper re-installation requires recalibrating the front radiator louver shutters, which can only be done via the Toolbox application. I want to buy the painted bumper cover from a bodyshop and install it myself (the local shops want $$$$ to do the install).
4) Perform annual maintenance myself (coming up on the 12,500 mile mark). Can only read diagnostic alerts/etc with the toolbox application. It is also required for many of the maintenance tasks like performing the thermal System Test and draining/filling fluid in the HVAC system
5) Complete a wheel alignment check (requires toolbox)
6) Upgrade my 48A charger to the 72A charger. (Requires toolbox to enable the new hardware/set the proper configuration flags on the vehicle)
7) Upgrade my wheels (requires toolbox to change wheel config/size)

Lots more I'm sure that I haven't even thought of. Sure, I plan to utilize my warranty for items that are covered under it. But I also want/need to do work that will not be covered by warranty. And being forced to pay "dealer/authorized shop" rates to do it is ridiculous, especially when I am perfectly capable and willing to do the work!

 

[Red Sage]

What is the deal with everybody being so afraid of Tesla?

I'm pretty sure I told you already. I even gave a direct quote from Tesla's own 10Q forms, listed under 'RISK FACTORS'. You are correct in that 'If a Man can Make it, a Man can Fix it'. But I am also correct that people don't even take responsibility for their own farts -- If a Man Can Work on it, A Man can [FOUL] it up -- then blame someone else. Most people drive 15,000 miles per year or less. Thus, it will for many of them be several years before any Tesla product they own is out of warranty. There is no immediate need for 'independent service technicians'. And, if Tesla proves themselves to be affordable and reliable in the long run, there won't be in the future either.

Otherwise where will all our electric vehicle mechanics, racers, engineers, and fixers come from? the sky? Tesla's technician monastery? People need to get realistic, this car is pretty cool, but it's not magic.

The Tesla Technician Monastery would probably do fine. I fully understand your independent spirit, your willingness to learn, and demonstrate, your ability to literally 'Do It Yourself'. There's nothing wrong with that. But Tesla has to protect themselves from those who are nowhere near as capable or responsible as yourself. Those of us who understand that point are willing to wait until later to do whatever wrenching is to be done on their cars ourselves.

 

[Red Sage]

Well said, and fully agree.

Here are a few examples of things I would like to do to my own car, but have not been able to so far due to not having access to Toolbox:

1) Check my forward facing camera alignment/calibration. I have asked the local SC to do this twice so far, with them refusing since the car "isn't throwing any error codes". I think they will finally do this for me... but I should be able to check it myself!
2) Diagnose an intermittent ultrasonic sensor (can only read sensor data with the toolbox software)
3) Repair or replace my front bumper cover assembly. Proper re-installation requires recalibrating the front radiator louver shutters, which can only be done via the Toolbox application. I want to buy the painted bumper cover from a bodyshop and install it myself (the local shops want $$$$ to do the install).
4) Perform annual maintenance myself (coming up on the 12,500 mile mark). Can only read diagnostic alerts/etc with the toolbox application. It is also required for many of the maintenance tasks like performing the thermal System Test and draining/filling fluid in the HVAC system
5) Complete a wheel alignment check (requires toolbox)
6) Upgrade my 48A charger to the 72A charger. (Requires toolbox to enable the new hardware/set the proper configuration flags on the vehicle)
7) Upgrade my wheels (requires toolbox to change wheel config/size)

Lots more I'm sure that I haven't even thought of. Sure, I plan to utilize my warranty for items that are covered under it. But I also want/need to do work that will not be covered by warranty. And being forced to pay "dealer/authorized shop" rates to do it is ridiculous, especially when I am perfectly capable and willing to do the work!

So, if I understand you correctly, this 'Toolbox' software suite and associated diagnostic equipment is available to those who reside in Maryland, but you don't want to pay the amount it is offered for? Pardon me, but that certainly sounds like a personal problem. Tesla has the right to offer no discounts on such things. At 12,500 miles your car isn't out of its warranty period, even if you had bought one used from Tesla. Is this a matter of your simply believing that what you 'want' is most important? You don't want to pay Tesla to do any work... You don't want to follow the advice of Tesla's technicians when they tell you nothing is wrong with the car... You don't want to pay for diagnostic tools or software... But you DO want to work on your own car for some reason... So you have decided to blame Tesla for your dissatisfaction?

 

[Red Sage]

Tesla may be worried about someone getting inside the car and possibly disturbing/breaking/changing something else and then being held responsible for something someone else caused while under warranty.

Exactly. These guys all act as if that is not a valid concern. Tesla has specifically called out the possibility of someone making modifications to their cars as being a potential 'RISK FACTOR' for their company.

 

[internalaudit]

Why would someone with a Tesla under warranty try to DIY fixes and risk voiding the warranty?

After the warranty period, Tesla will no longer be on the hook for any issues correct?

The only fine line would be DIY tinkering with something in Years 5 to 8 and those leading to issues with components that are warranted for eight years.

Then the issue does negatively impact Tesla. If Tesla can pinpoint with accuracy reasons for almost all mishaps (fire, collision, etc. though I am not sure why we cannot have some healthy skepticism) and how it can prevent salvaged components from being operable, why wouldn't Tesla have monitoring tools to detect unauthorized work on components that could affect the batter or DU, the only major components that are covered for eight years?

I concur that many (not taking about percentages) DIYers do their vehicles more harm than good but lacking the Right to Repair doesn't help consumers one tiny bit post warranty.

 

[appleguru]

So, if I understand you correctly, this 'Toolbox' software suite and associated diagnostic equipment is available to those who reside in Maryland, but you don't want to pay the amount it is offered for? Pardon me, but that certainly sounds like a personal problem. Tesla has the right to offer no discounts on such things. At 12,500 miles your car isn't out of its warranty period, even if you had bought one used from Tesla. Is this a matter of your simply believing that what you 'want' is most important? You don't want to pay Tesla to do any work... You don't want to follow the advice of Tesla's technicians when they tell you nothing is wrong with the car... You don't want to pay for diagnostic tools or software... But you DO want to work on your own car for some reason... So you have decided to blame Tesla for your dissatisfaction?

Huh? Mass, not MD.

And no, the toolbox software is NOT availible to me, for any amount of money. Their service manuals are, for an exorbitant subscription fee (which I have paid for, but still doesn't get me access to the software I need to actually complete many of the tasks included). It's $30 per hour for access
, $100 per day.

Why is it so hard for you guys to accept that some people (like me) enjoy working on cars, and would rather spend their own time fixing things than pay someone else to do it? (Warranty or otherwise?)

 

[appleguru]

Why would someone with a Tesla under warranty try to DIY fixes and risk voiding the warranty?

After the warranty period, Tesla will no longer be on the hook for any issues correct?

The only fine line would be DIY tinkering with something in Years 5 to 8 and those leading to issues with components that are warranted for eight years.

Then the issue does negatively impact Tesla. If Tesla can pinpoint with accuracy reasons for almost all mishaps (fire, collision, etc. though I am not sure why we cannot have some healthy skepticism) and how it can prevent salvaged components from being operable, why wouldn't Tesla have monitoring tools to detect unauthorized work on components that could affect the batter or DU, the only major components that are covered for eight years?

I concur that many (not taking about percentages) DIYers do their vehicles more harm than good but lacking the Right to Repair doesn't help consumers one tiny bit post warranty.

Why would "diy fixes" affect the warranty at all if done correctly and in accordance with the tesla procedures and specifications with OEM parts purchased from tesla? (Hint: they wouldn't).

Once my car is out of warranty, I intend to do most work that needs to be done myself. While the car is in warranty, I expect Tesla to handle warranty issues, and I desire to do my own maintenance and repairs for out of warranty items. I will very likely take my car to Tesla to perform the annual maintenence while it is under warranty, if for no other reason than to minimize any possible warranty disputes. But I still want the option to work on and diagnose the car myself, especially for items that are not covered under warranty. I have a legal right to this in my state. Tesla is NOT in compliance with state laws that every other auto manufacturer has and does follow. Why should they be treated any differently?