Out of whack AC pricing

[moa999]

Thought I'd start a thread on the basis of a new EVSE (AC charger) I saw on Plugshare.
Kind of #plugsharebitchin and but also a real issue.

I might add I'm not at all in favour of free charging at all, even for AC. It totally distorts the market, encourages freeloading from locals (who could otherwise charge at home), and arguably suppresses more chargers being installed, as who wants to compete against free.

In the early days it was fair enough as there won't many EVs about, and a shopping centre/ business/ council would probably spend more on monthly fees with a biller than you would get back in fees (plus you had Tesla handing out free V2 Wall Chargers which couldn't bill). Thus with a free Tesla wall charger you could tick that EV charging / greenwashing box pretty easily.

But I think we are at a point where there is sufficient use of chargers to move to a commercial model, plus businesses are seeing the real cost of maintenance and electricity usage.

But to run a business - your price has got to be fair, and in line with what others are in the area.. otherwise you simply won't get any usage, and won't get a return either.

At least in Australia, my view of fair is probably something like
AC - $0.20-0.45/kWh. Possible ToU to reflect wholesale prices, or use of own solar. Maybe a bit higher for motels/hotels where you typically won't get multiple uses per day, just a single car plugged in overnight.
DC to 100kW - $0.30-0.55/kWh
DC 100+kW - $0.50-0.70/kWh
With premiums on DC for those that are in remote areas or not on the electrical grid.

+---+

So anyway here's a few examples of some AC charging sites that are just out of whack with their pricing.

Brand new (which prompted this thread)
Hanging Tree Wines, Pokolbin
Chargefox, 7kW BYO Type 2
$0.60/kWh

Hanging Tree Wines | Pokolbin, NSW | EV Station

$0.60/kWh

www.plugshare.com

No users yet
In the NSW Hunter Valley, which has (currently free) NRMA DC chargers and another 15+ wineries with free charging.

About six months old
Dixon Park Beach Carpark
EVX, 22kW BYO Type 2

EVX Dixon Park | Merewether, NSW | EV Station

Powered by 100% Clean Energy! Dual 22kW BYO Type 2 Polecharger. Free Parking Download app - https://evx.tech/evx-drivers-app/

www.plugshare.com

$0.50/kWh
5 check-ins a month
Close to a bunch of free Newcastle council AC and DC chargers, and in a free carpark.
(EVX also has a similar charger in Glebe, Sydney but you get free parking with the charge, so better value for non-locals)

Since 2019
The Mix Chatswood
No network, $0.10/min (equates to $0.55/kWh at 11kW, $0.78 at 7kW)

The Mix Chatswood Car Park | Chatswood, NSW | EV Station

2x Tethered Type 2 wall station 1 Charger near entry on B2, another near B1 entry. 11kW / 3ph 16A (22kW)

www.plugshare.com

1-2 check-ins a month
This charger also only accepts payment by credit card.. but it comes with a whopping $40 pre-authorisation.
Chatswood has free chargers in Westfield and Chatswood Chase (CC) and also some free ones in paid council carparks. And a paid Engie DC charger under construction in CC.

 

[paulp]

I agree with your fee for use only theory with the exception of paid carparks. So Adelaide Airport for example charges exhorbitant money to park in their carpark. There is no way anyone would use it unless they had to, so picking up a free 10A 240V charge makes it pallitable

 

[cafz]

I think for commercial locations like shopping centres and airports, it's up to them if they feel the benefit is there to provide free charging, if it attracts more custom. The cost of power is pretty minimal really, within the same order of magnitude as the effective value of the space the parking itself takes up.

Same if they want to charge a fee too - as you've noted if the fees are too out-of-line with what the market will pay, the charger will see little use.

 

[tjkessler]

I think it's fine thing for business attracting customers. Where I live local libraries and high schools got solar panels as some stimulus long ago and I'm OK with free AC charging there as well (locally it's only free from 9AM to 4pm).

 

[tjkessler]

Oh here in silicon valley many employers have free EV charging with a charge valet who shuffles cars around as they get charged. That also allows them to do stacked bumper to bumper parking to save space.

 

[Davemcd]

In over a month owning the Tesla prob charged 60-70% at free charging Woolies or Local Shops.
Did a hour at free council charger outside of kids Basketball game
At home I charged on Solar.. Although Melb not been so kind for sun

As others have said having a charger can be a difference as a business.
Coles no charger vs Woolies 400m down the road with 16 EV free chargers.
We normally go to Woolies 3-4 times a week I stay a little longer now charging watching youtube etc.
Although I do see a lot of people plug in and not shop at the Woolies.

Edit I do see future where low cost charging at say a food/petrol station along the Hume.
Or discount if you buy something at the food places maybe

 

[Futuretech]

Oh here in silicon valley many employers have free EV charging with a charge valet who shuffles cars around as they get charged. That also allows them to do stacked bumper to bumper parking to save space.

Valet is such an American concept - perhaps due to the lower cost of labour there?

 

[bcarp]

Valet is such an American concept - perhaps due to the lower cost of labour there?

I’m sure those valets also collect a tip when the driver returns. That won’t happen in Australia.

 

[Futuretech]

I think the solution is for shopping centres to put in more free charges to address the increase in number of EVs that'll potentially use them (if one draws X amount of custom then 2 will see 2X, etc up to a certain limit which is determined by the EV ownership in the area). It doesn't really inhibit competition as most will value convinence rather than spending a couple extra hour each week at the shopping centre just so you can get free $5 of electricity if you can charge at home or if there's a much closer charger nearby so you can just wait at home.

 

[Futuretech]

I’m sure those valets also collect a tip when the driver returns. That won’t happen in Australia.

I would not mind paying a couple of bucks for the convinence of not having to park myself. Up to $5 if it's a shopping centre on Saturday afternoon lol

 

[moa999]

employers have free EV charging with a charge valet who shuffles cars around as they get charged

Interesting.
Certainly a benefit for employees (albeit no doubt a financial nightmare in Aus with our FBT (Fringe Benefits Tax) regime. The valet sounds expensive though.

As V2G becomes more common, I actually see this being beneficial for many employers at campuses/factories... They charge your car in the morning for free on rooftop solar, on the quid pro quo that they can redraw an amount from say 4pm till you go home (typical the point where solar production drops, and in Australia where premium power rates kick in)

vs Woolies 400m down the road with 16 EV free chargers.

I've got no doubt that free is attractive while no-one else has it. (And assume that's a fairly new store). That's probably a $20+K install (probably covered in a new store build budget) and up to $50/hr in electricity.

But move forward 5-10-yrs when suddenly people are queing for those chargers clogging up the car-park and stopping ICE cars parking.
Will the store/regional manager want to throw more $$s at it?

 

[moa999]

I would not mind paying a couple of bucks for the convinence of not having to park myself. Up to $5 if it's a shopping centre on Saturday afternoon lol

Valet service in Aus tends to be a little more expensive - Westfield Bondi Junction in Sydney

Westfield Bondi Junction Shopping Centre

Westfield Bondi Junction - your one-stop hub for shopping, fun & relaxation. Shop our range of fashion, entertainment, dining & wellbeing or check out great events & activities.

www.westfield.com.au

(And this place does have some Tesla wall chargers)

 

[Futuretech]

Certainly a benefit for employees (albeit no doubt a financial nightmare in Aus with our FBT (Fringe Benefits Tax) regime. The valet sounds expensive though.

This is generally FBT free due to something called in-house property benefit exemption.

 

[B3AU]

Speaking to EVX at Fully Charged, they said their pricing matches the current electricity market pricing, whereas Evie (et all) had obviously negotiated their pricing years ago.

Side note;

No users yet

1-2 check-ins a month

Doesn't seem to be in the iOS app, but the Google Maps app in AAOS tells you when a charger was last used (well occupied).

Of course it only works for sites that feed the real time availability to Google Maps.

Here it is in a friend's Volvo XC40.

It would be neat if PlugShare could use / show this for sites it also has availability for, even if nobody checks in at the time.

 

[scully]

Mingara Tumbi Umbi is 50cents for AC. It is right next to the BP which is 55cents for DC. Not many checkins at Mingara

 

[Vostok]

@moa999 - I don’t think any of us (unless we are stealth employees of one of these networks) are really in a position to know for each operator what their input costs are and hence what a fair rate to charge users would be in order for the operator to actually make a decent return on their investment.

Also check-ins at Plugshare are becoming a quaint legacy practice of early adopters (I still do it - but I suspect the majority of EV drivers these days do not). So I would consider it an unreliable indicator of usage.

If I didn’t have off-street parking, I would be a frequent user of Glebe EVX, and definitely would not be checking in each time. I would pay for the convenience, the ability to see if the charger is available, and good likelihood of getting a spot. It’s on a public street and so parking restrictions enforced and risk of ICEing low.

The market will eventually sort this out, so I don’t see the value in critiquing what various networks charge. I doubt any of them are trying to “profiteer” because I suspect no-one is making money out of this yet. That is, not only covering their operational costs, but beginning to pay back their capital investment.

I expect to see quite a bit of consolidation and a few shakeouts in this industry in coming years.

EV Charging Networks Aren't Making Money

While the automotive sector is habitually discussing how electric vehicle adoption will be spurred on by the country building a more robust charging infrastructure, nobody seems to be talking about how to make charging profitable enough to sustain itself. As of now, government subsidies are...

www.thetruthaboutcars.com

 

[raynewman]

Thought I'd start a thread on the basis of a new EVSE (AC charger) I saw on Plugshare.
Kind of #plugsharebitchin and but also a real issue.

I might add I'm not at all in favour of free charging at all, even for AC. It totally distorts the market, encourages freeloading from locals (who could otherwise charge at home), and arguably suppresses more chargers being installed, as who wants to compete against free.

In the early days it was fair enough as there won't many EVs about, and a shopping centre/ business/ council would probably spend more on monthly fees with a biller than you would get back in fees (plus you had Tesla handing out free V2 Wall Chargers which couldn't bill). Thus with a free Tesla wall charger you could tick that EV charging / greenwashing box pretty easily.

But I think we are at a point where there is sufficient use of chargers to move to a commercial model, plus businesses are seeing the real cost of maintenance and electricity usage.

But to run a business - your price has got to be fair, and in line with what others are in the area.. otherwise you simply won't get any usage, and won't get a return either.

At least in Australia, my view of fair is probably something like
AC - $0.20-0.45/kWh. Possible ToU to reflect wholesale prices, or use of own solar. Maybe a bit higher for motels/hotels where you typically won't get multiple uses per day, just a single car plugged in overnight.
DC to 100kW - $0.30-0.55/kWh
DC 100+kW - $0.50-0.70/kWh
With premiums on DC for those that are in remote areas or not on the electrical grid.

+---+

So anyway here's a few examples of some AC charging sites that are just out of whack with their pricing.

Brand new (which prompted this thread)
Hanging Tree Wines, Pokolbin
Chargefox, 7kW BYO Type 2
$0.60/kWh

Hanging Tree Wines | Pokolbin, NSW | EV Station

$0.60/kWh

www.plugshare.com

No users yet
In the NSW Hunter Valley, which has (currently free) NRMA DC chargers and another 15+ wineries with free charging.

About six months old
Dixon Park Beach Carpark
EVX, 22kW BYO Type 2

EVX Dixon Park | Merewether, NSW | EV Station

Powered by 100% Clean Energy! Dual 22kW BYO Type 2 Polecharger. Free Parking Download app - https://evx.tech/evx-drivers-app/

www.plugshare.com

$0.50/kWh
5 check-ins a month
Close to a bunch of free Newcastle council AC and DC chargers, and in a free carpark.
(EVX also has a similar charger in Glebe, Sydney but you get free parking with the charge, so better value for non-locals)

Since 2019
The Mix Chatswood
No network, $0.10/min (equates to $0.55/kWh at 11kW, $0.78 at 7kW)

The Mix Chatswood Car Park | Chatswood, NSW | EV Station

2x Tethered Type 2 wall station 1 Charger near entry on B2, another near B1 entry. 11kW / 3ph 16A (22kW)

www.plugshare.com

1-2 check-ins a month
This charger also only accepts payment by credit card.. but it comes with a whopping $40 pre-authorisation.
Chatswood has free chargers in Westfield and Chatswood Chase (CC) and also some free ones in paid council carparks. And a paid Engie DC charger under construction in CC.

I guess you are against free WiFi as well - same principal.

 

[bcarp]

I guess you are against free WiFi as well - same principal

I’m against free public wifi. That’s because most of it is data harvesting.

However, the analogy is false. One person using free wifi doesn’t prevent someone else using it who really needs it. (Up to a certain number of people of course.)

 

[[Zombie]]

If the cost of EV charging stations (per user) was as cheap as wireless access points are then I would be happy with free charging too.

But they're not, so free charging is a problem for all the reasons already described in this thread.

 

[raynewman]

If the cost of EV charging stations (per user) was as cheap as wireless access points are then I would be happy with free charging too.

But they're not, so free charging is a problem for all the reasons already described in this thread.

When WiFi was at the same stage AC charging is now, the cost per WAP was a great deal more than the current AC chargers.
Note: for retail, Tesla will provide the AC units for nix.
Free AC is used the same as free WiFi - to get the customers in through the door.