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Over the air improvements or Over the air repairs? (No wonder such few recalls) *SupperCharging is Slower and Range Decreased!

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
8,351
10,741
Boise, ID
So stilton, camembert, or gruyere to go with this? I can't decide.

The bad attitude and unrealistic expectations displayed here are what is not winning you much support.

So when the battery died, it was disturbing to learn that Tesla wouldn’t offer or much less allow you to pay for an upgrade.
"Disturbing", that Tesla is doing the same as every other OEM manufacturer? Why would that be disturbing? That is the normal standard behavior that companies do. Having a program to retrofit newer upgrades into old products would be extremely unusual, so I don't know why you have this expectation that a company would do that.

Being thankful that the warranty was covering the cost of a replacement at least I’d be restored to a battery with at least the capacity as originally designed prior to the failure.
Ha! No, that's not how warranties work, and that is specifically not what the wording of the warranty says. It says it will be at least equivalent to how your battery was at the time of failure--not brand new or like new level. Warranties replace it to functional again, not exactly like new.

Or do we just slow them down, retire them sort of and maybe just take them off the road so that owners are forced to just replace them
That's not what they're doing.

I guess when it comes to technology over time these things become expensive paperweights because a decision was done for you that it’s just cheaper to replace than repair (little said for the environmentalist).
This is misleading and misguided. Tesla is still doing battery replacements. The theme of your post is this false premise that Tesla is refusing to service these cars or do battery replacements. That's not true. Get it repaired if you want.

..and with any other VEHICLE you can replace the part with a NEW one and keep the VEHICLE on the road; even the battery.
It's hard to find actual "NEW" parts of old technology sometimes. IDE hard drives and parts for CRT TVs are not going to be very readily available new.

My point is at what point is it no longer considered a vehicle? A dead battery out of warranty in a car shouldn't be an excuse for landfill.
It's not. Why do you not want to get it fixed and pretend like someone else is doing this to you?

I love the car, I would just like to be able to keep it on the road longer than its spent plugged in
Then do that.

Tesla is just too SEXY to be discarded like an iPhone or old CD Player
Then don't discard it.

Why are you so defensive?
You are stoking that with your deceptive statements and accusations. It is legitimately aggravating.

I just suggested we should have the option...
You DO have the option.

this has nothing to do with warrantee expectations.
Then why did you make false claims about what the warranty said?

It seems though you consider the warrantee an expiration date; which is something VEHICLES shouldn't have if taken care of.
And right there is another one of your false accusations. You are trying to make up those words to put in someone else's mouth.

I bought a SEXY Vehicle and want to keep it on the road and out of a landfill
Then DO THAT! No one is stopping you!

and you are shaming me?
*sigh* Not for wanting to get your car fixed, but for this playing the victim tactic you are doing and the false claims, etc. Sorry (kinda), but it deserves it.

However the unique point that I’m making is I would like the option like with other vehicles to modify and update the vehicle to keep it on the road.
1. You "would like the option"
2. The option exists.
3. You pretend it doesn't.
See what we're dealing with here?
It’s been 10years and barely any third party applications.
A lot of years does not necessarily equate to a very large market share or quantity of products to be supported by third parties. And again, the third parties are there, and you can use them. Why are you insisting on not doing that?

I can still bring my 1955 TBird to my the Ford dealer and they’d never suggest disposing of it because it’s out of warranty.
...and neither did Tesla. Again, you are making things up.

I have an old Model S85, ordered in January 2014. It is one of these old cars. It was within the first 32K cars they built. It is out of battery warranty now. My wife and I recently talked through what we are going to do with this for the future. I really like how the car is, so we decided we are going to keep it going for as long as we can and repair as needed, including battery replacement when it fails. There is a company called 057 Technology that has done many battery replacements on these old cars, and they have now created warranty service plans for this. We considered the warranty plans, but decided we are just going to go without, and whenever the battery fails, we will look at what options are available for battery replacement. Tesla will probably still offer it, but I don't know how price competitive they would be, so we will probably have 057's shop do the replacement. Those are choices. Those are options. They exist--stop pretending they don't. And we are going to evaluate and choose one of those options when the time comes. That's what you can do when you have an old product that is out of warranty.
 
I have a 70D that has slower than original charging - not as bad as some - I can hit 70kw.
Tesla is not perfect but not horrible on this either. I have 100k miles and less than 10% degradation even if 30% on supercharging speed. No one knew in 2015 (my purchase) how this was all going to work out and overall - it is pretty good.

That doesn't mean Tesla deserves a pass on their lack of communication that borders on lying when people complain to SCs about it. It also isn't fair to have OTA downgrades in your car without consent or even disclosure.

No question, I would rather have a car without farts etc than lose performance (whether it range, cold weather regen, supercharging speed etc). My next car will not be a Tesla for the myriad of missteps. But - early adopters take risks and I don't regret my purchase at all. I understand that Tesla (and the world) is somewhat learning as they go. And if that means my supercharging speed and cold weather regen is diminished - so be it.

Tesla needs to do better with battery replacemement costs. I really fear for the newer cars with harder to change batteries. I fully believe Musk couldn't care less if 10 year old cars are landfilled because they aren't worth replacing the battery. It is pretty hard to swallow $20k for a battery with unclear changes by OTA over its lifetime. But I also find people willing to pay $100k for a new Tesla crazy given how Tesla has treated the older cars. Obviously a lot of new buyers are not planning on holding the car but depreciation still hurts. But, very few $100k cars are worth that much at 10 years anyway.
 
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So we finally had the SVC check out the battery… despite slower charging (about a minute per hour), despite range reduction… the battery is healthy. Physically the car is PERFECT. But thanks to the recent firmware they admitted they’ve reduced the speed that the car will charge.

Like an older phone or computer, rather than improvements TESLA downgraded older devices.

We need the aftermarket for older models to step up. If anyone knows of a Tesla hacker on the west coast let me know otherwise when the time comes I’ll be shipping the car to NC to upgrade the car.
 

dark cloud

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
2,332
2,767
BC
Physically the car is PERFECT.

.........rather than improvements TESLA downgraded older devices.
Well, those statements contradict each other.

As much as I have complained about what mothership has done, or has not done, there is still no other vehicle I would rather be driving. I have owned this car for over 4 years and it is still an absolute joy to get behind the wheel. I have no album art. First world problem. On road trips I just take more time in restaurants when supercharging, or go to Starbucks before charging and enjoy the beverage while waiting, or just surf on the phone.
Given the choice of waiting another half an hour to charge or gassing up at $2 a litre? I think you know my answer.
We need the aftermarket for older models to step up. If anyone knows of a Tesla hacker on the west coast let me know otherwise when the time comes I’ll be shipping the car to NC to upgrade the car.
Absolutely. Competition is normally good for the consumer, but a problem I foresee is the more that many capable aftermarket tinkerers see an opportunity for a profitable business with Tesla battery repairs/upgrades, the higher the used/salvaged battery pack prices become, notwithstanding the aggressiveness of Tesla acquiring their own packs. Also, obviously the pool of crashed or otherwise inoperable older Model S's shrinks over time. At some point the dwindling supply of salvaged packs available will be too small for any viable business, and more creative solutions will be required. Such as this. We are very fortunate to have @wk057 dedicate his immense talents to helping us Tesla owners, instead of focussing on an occupation which would be much more lucrative. ;)
 
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Well, those statements contradict each other.

As much as I have complained about what mothership has done, or has not done, there is still no other vehicle I would rather be driving. I have owned this car for over 4 years and it is still an absolute joy to get behind the wheel. I have no album art. First world problem. On road trips I just take more time in restaurants when supercharging, or go to Starbucks before charging and enjoy the beverage while waiting, or just surf on the phone.
Given the choice of waiting another half an hour to charge or gassing up at $2 a litre? I think you know my answer.

Absolutely. Competition is normally good for the consumer, but a problem I foresee is the more that many capable aftermarket tinkerers see an opportunity for a profitable business with Tesla battery repairs/upgrades, the higher the used/salvaged battery pack prices become, notwithstanding the aggressiveness of Tesla acquiring their own packs. Also, obviously the pool of crashed or otherwise inoperable older Model S's shrinks over time. At some point the dwindling supply of salvaged packs available will be too small for any viable business, and more creative solutions will be required. Such as this. We are very fortunate to have @wk057 dedicate his immense talents to helping us Tesla owners, instead of focussing on an occupation which would be much more lucrative. ;)
if @@wj057 would only reply to messages sent and tweeted to his company 🙁
I’ve tried to reach out to him on several occasions… 🦗
too bad he wasn’t close enough to pop by. I’m hoping someday evWest or ElecticGT Electric GT - Electric Vehicle Systems and Components in San Marcos will step to the plate. They have done some exciting builds.

I have faith in these guys.. at least they see the value of pulling sexy out of the landfill and making it better than OEM.
 
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wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
6,124
14,652
Hickory, NC, USA
if @@wj057 would only reply to messages sent and tweeted to his company 🙁
I’ve tried to reach out to him on several occasions… 🦗

I definitely try to get to all of my messages, but sometimes its impossible. If you've contacted 057 via our contact page or email you should have gotten a response. At worst we're about a few days out on replies to non-spam. If you've got a ticket number, PM me here and I'll check it.

I don't always get notifications for Twitter DMs for people I don't follow... and that message requests section is 90% spam as it is, so it's sometimes hard to sift through. Twitter also seems to filter a lot of public @'s to me that aren't replies to things I've interacted with... no clue why this happens, though.

I do my best to get to all of my TMC PMs, but it's also a bit impossible. I need a secretary. 😂 I have... *looks up* 367 pending messages at the moment. There's no way I'll be able to get to them all. :( So yeah, usually best to contact 057tech directly, let my crew handle it, and if it's outside their normal expertise and my direct input is needed they'll get with me on it before replying.

My experience with most of the west coast EV shops, and is echoed in what I've heard from pretty much every customer who has had direct dealings with them, is that they're excellent at marketing and pushing a message. Look great on the surface. But actually getting anything done with them, or getting any support whatsoever after a purchase, ends up being a nightmare. Not saying I or my company are perfect. We've dropped the ball quite a few times over the years and have done our best to make up for it with anyone affected. But when a customer calls in, buys a part or a large EV conversion package, and we ship it within a day or so... then they call back just to let us know how much better their experience has been already compared to when they dealt with [insert popular west coast EV conversion company here], that tells me something.

I don't see many, if any, existing west coast EV companies going in the direction of products/services that support older Tesla vehicles. It's not an easy thing to do at all, and there's actually not a ton of money in it if it's going to be worthwhile and competitive enough to be viable. I could never run my business out west because it'd just cost too much to do so all around. I've looked into it, and expenses would easily triple, and we'd have less space to work with even at that. Want to bankrupt a company? Move it to the west coast!

Anyways, I'm in general agreement that Tesla shouldn't be making anything worse with OTA updates vs what was originally purchased... but I don't see them caring too much about it because there's just limited or no consequence to them for it. (Edit: By worse I mean things like reducing performance of components like the battery, supercharging, motor, etc... or making things less usable than or requiring more effort to use than they originally were such as the addition of and increased frequency of autopilot nags. Basically if there's something that had better performance or was easier to use in an earlier version, than I don't think Tesla should be allowed to do the "update" that makes it worse.)
 
Older battery service is at the mercy of the service center you go to. Some are really nice, troubleshooting and telling u exactly what's wrong. Some just say bad, $22k to replace. My car had battery range issues. They replaced it under warranty. Now I have battery faults. I asked for diagnosis and estimate. NOT pack is bad, $22k
I have motor fault. Oh replace entire motor, NOT. U said speed sensor was bad. Mind u motor is new 2019. I want diagnosis of exact issues. Not the $6300 estimate. YouTube shows changing sensor in 30 minutes.
As I said, we are at the mercy of the service center as to how good our service is?
I'm an retired ASE mechanic. Seems Tesla just wants the max repair and move on. Oh, no warranty on any part changed under warranty they told me. I know this is confusing, but it's the service center that make it that way. Us who drive antique cars just have to smile till more shops open.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
6,124
14,652
Hickory, NC, USA
YouTube shows changing sensor in 30 minutes.

Honestly, just stop watching YouTube for this stuff. YouTube is just full of Tesla clickbait these days. 99% of videos with "Tesla" in the title are complete trash at best, and will give you very poor and sometimes dangerously incorrect info at best. Every single Tesla-centric YouTube channel that's gotten a large enough audience is also complete garbage, even if they might not have started out that way. Few exceptions (like, Kman's channel is still good... keep it that way! lol). The vast majority of "I fixed XYZ on my Tesla for cheap" type videos are nonsense clickbait also, especially anything related to batteries.

Yeah, sure you can change the speed sensor on a large rear drive unit in ~30 min or so, probably less if you actually know what you're doing.

But......... this is not actually what causes issues with these drive units when you start getting HV faults. That's multiple YouTuber BS. If you start getting isolation faults, and the drive unit is the culprit, then 99% sure you're got water and/or coolant in the inverter casing. Sure, you might see some of that around the speed sensor, and it could go bad as a result (usually not, they're pretty well sealed), but replacing the speed sensor isn't going to do anything for you.
 
Few exceptions (like, Kman's channel is still good... keep it that way! lol). The vast majority of "I fixed XYZ on my Tesla for cheap" type videos are nonsense clickbait also, especially anything related to batteries.
Thank You! Your comment means a lot, ESPECIALLY coming from you! I'm not changing a thing! Might not put out as much content as I used to, I'm staying away from the click-bait unlike a lot of the others. I'll still post useful videos, as well as be straight forward and honest, as I've been since day one :)
I DO however need to make it to your shop at some point!!!
Keep up the AWESOME work on your end as well! I've learned so much from reading and watching your content!
 
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I think all of 5stars points are valid. The build date of my ICE cars are 1969, 2003, 2004 and 2017. My Tesla S is 2013-P85+. I bought the fast charger options (80 A wall unit). I rarely supercharged or went above 40 A at home. However, my 2017 ICE is primarily for long road trips. The Tesla range was maybe 265 miles if I crawled at 55 mph, but I drive 80 and never got to 200 miles without need to recharge. I share 5stars disappointment with Tesla. I understand I was an early adopter because I believed in the idea. However, other than commuting, electric cars will not replace ICE for me. Maybe hydrogen or bi-ion salt, but my experience is that battery electric EVs will not be the long term solution for me. I lack the patience to wait for an hour every 2.5 hours of driving. The alternative was replaceable batteries, which Elon promised but failed to deliver. NIO might have something worth considering if available in US. You just lease the battery (kinda like gas or beer) and swap out the depleted one for a fresh one in 5-10 minutes. Alas, we're not there yet.
 
Soon, even now, there are people that repair the batteries. Tesla Co-founder Straub even started a business to recycle batteries that are used up. We are still the early-adopters, and we pay the price. Within 5 years, repair of old batteries will be common, and replacement costs with new batteries will likely be available, bringing their cost down as well. The Toyota Prius battery used to "total" a Toyota out of warranty, and it was just a hybrid. Now, the cost is much lower. Toyota owners don't complain that much. The Tesla battery will generally never go to a landfill, as its core value will always make it worthwhile to pull out and recycle. Many of the parts of used Teslas have great value. Check out Ebay.

I agree that there will and should be more third-parties that will offer replacement batteries or battery repair, esp as more Tesla's come on the road (and more also get "retired" due to accidents and whatnot, providing a supply of used batteries.

But I'm not understanding your comment about the Prius batteries (aka the HV high voltage batter). HV battery failure almost never totaled a Prius, because much sooner in the lifecycle, there were more folks offering lower-cost solutions than buying a new $6000 HV battery from Toyota. First, it was very easy to remove and teardown the Prius HV batteries, and usually easy to repair by swapping one or more faulty modules from another pack (IIRC there were about 24 modules in a full battery pack). That also meant there were many third-parties rebuilding used packs, so one could also just have their entire pack replaced with a rebuilt one for around $2000. I've checked recently and these days there's even a nationwide third-party service that will provide replace your pack for $1600, labor included.

I was one that even was happy back in the day to replace the pack for $2K on a car that was only worth about $2.5K, just because keeping it on the road for a couple more years was certainly cheaper than depreciation on any newer model used car. And the value of the cars, rather than going to zero, bottomed out and even increased occasionally as the price of gas went up and down.

I just wish all of that would happen sooner for Tesla, but I think the longevity of the cars and packs themselves (meaning few yet are reaching the salvage stage), and particularly the complexity of tearing down the Tesla packs or fixing bad cells, limits it only to a very small handful of third-parties like 057 Tech so far.
 
It bears mentioning that fast charging speed improvements, v3 superchargers, etc. were never marketed to or intended for older cars. Just new ones that can support it.
Those are fair statements, but I feel the OP also didn't get what was originally advertised for supercharging at the time he bought it, and I do believe you had to buy supercharging as an add-on option on the original MS 60's that were not locked 75's. I mean 27kw on a v3 Supercharger is barely above the best L2 charging rates ( I think some Europeans could get up to 22 kw on three-phase L2 )...
 
Those are fair statements, but I feel the OP also didn't get what was originally advertised for supercharging at the time he bought it, and I do believe you had to buy supercharging as an add-on option on the original MS 60's that were not locked 75's. I mean 27kw on a v3 Supercharger is barely above the best L2 charging rates ( I think some Europeans could get up to 22 kw on three-phase L2 )...
Original MS Could charge at 20kW stateside with dual charger. I have it and use it extensively on my 2016 MS. My 2016 MX only has the 48 amp charger, and the faster 72 amp charger they offered for it for a while, would have saved a LOT of time on many occasions.

27kW "supercharging" is not Supercharging. Thats embarrassing :-(
 
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