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P100D on the Dyno....

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do all the calcs you want, I'm posting what the dyno results were.... the car weighs 4960 BTW....

If the weight is higher, it would be even slower. I just wanted to convince you that your numbers weren't wheel torque, so the numbers you reported were calculated. And because they are obviously wrong, the only usable number is hp.

Now, don't get me wrong. I like your videos, because they are usually pretty accurate and nicely done. I never had a reason to complain, but these torque numbers(and those of the P85D). So maybe you could ask your dyno guy, and even if it's just the next time you dyno a Tesla, which gearing ratio he uses to calculate shaft torque, or to just print out wheel torque.

It would be interesting to see how much torque the Model S really puts to the wheels.
 
What Model S really puts to the wheels can be most accurately calculated from well-measured 0-60 run.
One only needs to accurately record car speed at say 0.1s intervals. Shorter intervals the better. Or just accurately measure the times of each single wheel revolution.
From this one can draw the actual torque and power put to the wheels.
 
What Model S really puts to the wheels can be most accurately calculated from well-measured 0-60 run.
One only needs to accurately record car speed at say 0.1s intervals. Shorter intervals the better. Or just accurately measure the times of each single wheel revolution.
From this one can draw the actual torque and power put to the wheels.

eh, only if you assume there is no wheel spin, and no traction control type mechanisms kicking in, which i believe Tesla has said is controlled at the millisecond level (hundreds of times more granular than traction control on an ICE vehicle, which can only manage things every quarter second or so). on any given 0-60 run, there is probably torque management kicking in due to imperceptible (to humans) amounts of traction loss. it's why the car is so easy to launch, and so consistent.

a dyno is supposed to eliminate the traction factor, but the Model S has so much acceleration not even the dyno drums can keep up -- even on a dyno, the wheels slip or the car tries to jump off the platform in the videos i've seen.
 
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"do all the calcs you want, I'm posting what the dyno results were"

My point, which you seem to have missed, was that at least 3,340 pound-feet of wheel torque is required to reach 60 MPH in 2.5 seconds from a standing start with a 5,000 pound vehicle.

You're severely underestimating wheel torque. We know the car produces well over 1G. See post #34.

*just convert horizontal force (g) to rotational force (ft/lbs). Simple.
 
You're severely underestimating wheel torque. We know the car produces well over 1G. See post #34.
*just convert horizontal force (g) to rotational force (ft/lbs). Simple.

No I'm not, read *all* of what I wrote. I clearly stated "This represents the *average* torque, the peak torque would be much higher." I did not state a value for "much higher" because I thought that it should be quite obvious that achieving 1.14G of acceleration in a 5,000 pound vehicle with 1.12 foot radius tires would require a peak torque of 5,600 pound-feet, and it does not need to sustain that value for very long since the average is "only" 3,340 pound-feet. I also wanted to point out that the 920 pound-feet torque value was computed (with gearing ratio and gearing loss assumptions) and not measured since the wheel torque and RPM were the only things being measured on the dyno.


And since I am here, we could estimate the motor torque in the following way.

A recent ARS Technica article (Tesla’s P100D: I got 99 problems, but not being able to go really fast ain’t one) claims: "That's 259hp (193kW) at the front, 503hp (375kW) at the rear—although the maximum combined power output is 680hp (507kW)."

Taking the ratios of the motor HP values (the motor torque ratios would be better, but we don't have those numbers) we get that the rear motor provides about 2/3rds of the total power (the front motor is rated at 51% of the rear motor, HP wise). Since the rear motor gearbox has a 9.73 ratio and it provides about 2/3rds of the torque, while the front motor gearbox has a 9.34 ratio and provides about 1/3rd of the torque, we can estimate that the equivalent single motor and gear box has about a 9.61 ratio and the resulting lossless motor peak torque would be 583 pound-feet. Straight cut involute gears can have a typical loss of 2% per meshing pair, but Tesla uses helical gearing for quieter operation and greater strength. If we assume a 5% loss for the single helical gearing reduction (and it is likely not that high since helical gears can generally approach straight cut gearing losses), that results in 612 pound-feet of torque, or right at 2/3rds of the claimed 920 pound-feet.

Lets approach this from another direction, using the same equivalent gearbox ratio and estimated gearing loss, but starting with the claimed 920 pound-feet of motor torque. That torque though a 95% efficiency 9.61 ratio gearbox results in a total peak of 8,400 pound-feet at the wheels. If that amount of torque was transmitted to the dyno the peak acceleration would be 1.5Gs. I am unaware of any published measured P100D accelerations reaching above 1.2Gs. Also note that the torque plot shows signs of obvious wheel slippage from about 40 to 48 MPH, and as a result the available peak torque was never actually reached on that dyno.

From the above it is apparent that the claimed 920 pound-feet of peak Tesla P100D electric motor torque based on the provided dyno measurements is completely bogus. The dyno people obviously blew the computations for equivalent motor torque. The HP number should be more accurate, depending on what they assumed for the gearbox losses. Measuring the torque and RPM at the wheels does allow for an accurate wheel HP computation.
 
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I think I have found the problem. After days thinking about it, I couldn't just accept that either fiskgets would not remember telling the dyno guy some gearing ratio, or that the dyno guy just typed in some random number.

But there is just one possibility how this could work. The dyno sheet doesn't give any units, so maybe, just maybe the figure 920 is meant to be Nm, not lb-ft.

I have done some digging and Tesla says their motors are rated to 687 lb-ft of torque, once the P85D came out. Now I believe that was maximum output, which wasn't achievable with the P85D, like the 691hp. Now what happens if you convert 687 lb-ft to Nm? 931Nm... suspiciously close to what the dyno said.
 
I think I have found the problem. After days thinking about it, I couldn't just accept that either fiskgets would not remember telling the dyno guy some gearing ratio, or that the dyno guy just typed in some random number.

I've seen tons of dynographs where the operator clearly set the machine up wrong. They don't make you get a physics and computer science degree to use the thing.
 
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I have done some digging and Tesla says their motors are rated to 687 lb-ft of torque, once the P85D came out. Now I believe that was maximum output, which wasn't achievable with the P85D, like the 691hp. Now what happens if you convert 687 lb-ft to Nm? 931Nm... suspiciously close to what the dyno said.

Excellent researching. Can you provide a link to where Tesla provides the front and rear motor maximum torque values? Also, Tesla does not seem to have provided any HP or torque values for the P100D, so there is a small possibility that it does not use the same motors as the P85D. I doubt that it uses different motors, but it would be nice to know the facts directly from Tesla.
 
Excellent researching. Can you provide a link to where Tesla provides the front and rear motor maximum torque values? Also, Tesla does not seem to have provided any HP or torque values for the P100D, so there is a small possibility that it does not use the same motors as the P85D. I doubt that it uses different motors, but it would be nice to know the facts directly from Tesla.

They had those on their website once, but I took the wikipedia page as a reference. The thing is, that it is rather hard to find a reliable reference, since most headlines relate to dragtimes videos, and therefore report false torque claims.

Motortrend claims different torque figures for the P90DL
2015 Tesla Model S P90D w/Ludicrous Upgrade First Test
The claimed 713 lb-ft would be 966Nm, which makes sense, since it's torque at the shaft which still has some resistances to overcome, before it can be "measured" at the wheels.
 
Motortrend claims different torque figures for the P90DL
2015 Tesla Model S P90D w/Ludicrous Upgrade First Test
The claimed 713 lb-ft would be 966Nm, which makes sense, since it's torque at the shaft which still has some resistances to overcome, before it can be "measured" at the wheels.

There is an obvious problem with using P85D or P90D HP and torque values for the P100D. As far as I am aware, the P100D in ludicrous plus mode drives the highest peak currents through the two motors. The P90D and earlier models are more battery limited than the P100D. As a result both the HP and especially the torque should be significantly higher for the P100D than all previous models since the torque is proportional to drive current and the HP is just the torque in pound-feet times the RPM divided by 5252 (an easily derivable conversion constant). If the P90D really has a peak torque of 713 pound-feet, the P100D should be even higher than that. The higher RPM at lower drive current HP might also increase as well, depending on the Tesla inverter control. Where the P85D battery has 7104 cells, the P100D has 8,256 cells.

A detailed (sampled every 0.1 seconds for example) 0 to 100 MPH or similar run with the speed vs time data and a fully known total vehicle running weight would allow for plotting the wheel HP and torque vs speed. From there quite reasonable estimations for the peak motor shaft HP and torque could be made. I have seen similar data for the P85D but not for the P100D and thus far Tesla has not provided the peak motor HP and torque values for the P100D.
 
There is an obvious problem with using P85D or P90D HP and torque values for the P100D. As far as I am aware, the P100D in ludicrous plus mode drives the highest peak currents through the two motors. The P90D and earlier models are more battery limited than the P100D. As a result both the HP and especially the torque should be significantly higher for the P100D than all previous models since the torque is proportional to drive current and the HP is just the torque in pound-feet times the RPM divided by 5252 (an easily derivable conversion constant). If the P90D really has a peak torque of 713 pound-feet, the P100D should be even higher than that. The higher RPM at lower drive current HP might also increase as well, depending on the Tesla inverter control. Where the P85D battery has 7104 cells, the P100D has 8,256 cells.

A detailed (sampled every 0.1 seconds for example) 0 to 100 MPH or similar run with the speed vs time data and a fully known total vehicle running weight would allow for plotting the wheel HP and torque vs speed. From there quite reasonable estimations for the peak motor shaft HP and torque could be made. I have seen similar data for the P85D but not for the P100D and thus far Tesla has not provided the peak motor HP and torque values for the P100D.

I think the 713lb-ft is the maximum torque the motors can supply, like the 770hp they claim, but I don't think this was reached with the P90DL. The P100D will definitely come closer to those numbers. Probably closer to max torque than max power, since the voltage drops considerably, limiting maximum power.

I'd also say that the motors stayed the same, I'd even say they stayed the same with the P85D and the P90D, but that they just increased their rating, based on long time testing.
 
1086755-00-D

my friend took delivery of a new P100D AP2 car a couple weeks ago and it has the same battery...

That's interesting. The latest P100D are now coming from the factory with 1115548-00-D. I'm curious what's the difference now?

We are still waiting for the P90D/L to P100D retrofit, so I suspect that we may see the newer 1115548-00-D for those who do this retrofit... Maybe even a newer battery part number the longer they take to announced this retrofit.
 
And here is yet another dynamometer evaluation that claims 1,034 pound-feet of torque for the P100D, and the torque curve looks completely wonky. The HP curves also do not look correct; they should flatten out once the torque peaks and stay that way until a rather high speed is reached.
Tesla Model S P100D hits the dyno, spits out incredible torque: video

The curve actually looks OK, except for the fact that they only get to full throttle at 3000 RPM. Just extrapolate that curve back to 0.
 
To complicate things even more the performance restoring update actually removed performance from p models unless in launchmode. I doubt they can do a dyno test in launch mode... so if these cars have current software they are not making max power.
 
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And here is yet another dynamometer evaluation that claims 1,034 pound-feet of torque for the P100D, and the torque curve looks completely wonky. The HP curves also do not look correct; they should flatten out once the torque peaks and stay that way until a rather high speed is reached.
Tesla Model S P100D hits the dyno, spits out incredible torque: video

Their RPMs are off. According to MT the rear motor spins at 7007 rpm at 60mph, which is 116.78 rpm per mph. They claim max torque at 3050 rpm / 84.5 km/h. But 84.5 km/h is equal to 52.39 mph, which means the rear motor is spinning at 6118 rpm. If we correct for false rpm, we strangely arrive at about 700 Nm.

But these are actually the best numbers we have so far, since they actually give out some data, instead of just "reporting what the dyno says".