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P100D SuperCharging Rate

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by HillCountryFun, Sep 14, 2016.

  1. HillCountryFun

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    All, there has been much speculation on the design and construction of the new cooling system for the P100D packs. I'm hoping that anyone who takes delivery of a new P100D will watch their SuperCharging cycle closely to observe the voltage and current changes over time as the charging takes place. We can compare this to the existing P90D charging data to see if a we gain a decrease in overall charging time with the new pack design.

    Good luck new Model S owners!
     
  2. wraithnot

    wraithnot Model S VIN #5785

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    NDR posted three datapoints for supercharging a P100D in this thread: Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!

    I don't have any P90D supercharging data, but here's a graph comparing data I logged with with my classic S85 on a trip to Seattle in August 2014 to the new P100D data. This definitely looks like a solid improvement in supercharging ability!

    S85_vs_P100D.jpg
     
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  3. HillCountryFun

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    Wow!! That is a solid improvement! Thanks for post!!
     
  4. vgrinshpun

    vgrinshpun Active Member

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    I was trying to find these discussions on the design and construction of the new cooling system for the P100D packs, without success. Can you direct me to where they are?

    Tnanks
     
  5. mikeash

    mikeash Active Member

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    That's amazing. I was happy with my 85 up until now, but this makes me really want a 100. Oh well!
     
  6. HillCountryFun

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  7. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    Yeah so interesting story. The 90 kWh packs used to charge slower than 85s. Then one day earlier this summer Tesla pushed an update that greatly accelerated the supercharge rate for the 90s so they far surpassed the 85. See:

    Tesla Ups Supercharger Charging Rate For Refreshed Model S 90D & P90D - Video

    Now why can't the 85s see an improvement with the taper? They definitely can. We know from @wk057 that there is significant room for improvement at the higher SOC end. But whether Tesla will bother to backport the taper algo to us 85s remains uncertain. It would be disappointing if Tesla stopped supporting BMS updates to the 85s just because they aren't the latest and greatest.
     
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  8. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    Tesla definitely has incentive to "bother" to update the 85s if it's feasible to do so, as it would increase the throughput of the supercharging stations. As long as people move their cars when they're finished charging, a faster charging rate would have the same benefit overall as adding stalls.
     
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  9. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    Right. Agree that it is in everyone's best interest to have all cars charge as fast as possible. I'm just unsure why the 90s all received a considerable bump but the 85s received nothing.
     
  10. mikeash

    mikeash Active Member

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    Dear Elon, I will send you three, no, four bars of medium-quality chocolate if you do this for my car.
     
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  11. vgrinshpun

    vgrinshpun Active Member

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    Thanks!

    I believe that this discussion is actually quite off. The reason I was asking the question is that I think I have pretty good educated guess what the construction/cooling/connections of new P100D packs are, but it is based on publicly available information. I was wondering if there are some actual pictures of the inside of new packs or some accounts from people who saw the innards of the packs, so I can compare it with the information I was able to research. It looks, though, that there is no real info available yet, just attempts at educated guesses.
     
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  12. NDR

    NDR Member

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    Road trip tomorrow...
    Will get some good p100d sc rates during the trip.
     
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  13. NDR

    NDR Member

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    P100D Supercharge from 25% to 75%
    25% 116kw
    30 116
    35 113
    40 113
    45 113
    50 113
    55 113
    58 109
    60 106
    61 102
    62 97
    63 95
    64 91
    65 89
    66 87
    67 87
    68 86
    69 84
    70 81
    71 79
    72 75
    73 71
    74 66
    75% 63kw
     
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  14. HillCountryFun

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    Wonderful info!!! Did you record the timings as well?
     
  15. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    Looks strikingly similar to the 90s taper. Although the equivalent taper point is reached 3-5% SOC later on the 100. Makes sense given that they use the same cells.
     
  16. HillCountryFun

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    Agreed, but I'm hoping that the cooling system is more efficient such that the overall rate of charge is higher than a 90D.
     
  17. wraithnot

    wraithnot Model S VIN #5785

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    Here's an overlay of the plot from the article you referenced (I'm assuming the dip in the new 90D charge rate from ~40-60% SOC is an artifact) and my previous plot including NDR's new data . The combined plot is a little busy, but I agree that the P100D curve looks pretty similar to the newer 90 kWh curve. But it still looks like the P100D outperforms the 90 kWh by a bit in terms of power vs. state of charge. And the P100D does even better when you consider that the same state of charge value represents 11% more stored energy vs. a 90 kWh battery and 18% more stored energy vs. an 85 kWh battery.

    To put this in more practical terms, it took my S85 38 minutes to get to 190 rated miles when starting from 25 rated miles. Based on NDR's charging data and the MPGe highway value for a P100D vs. an S85, I estimate the same charge from 25 to 190 rated miles would have taken about 25 minutes* in a P100D. Going from 38 minutes to 25 minutes isn't a huge difference, but it's certainly enough to notice.

    S85_vs_P100D_overlay.jpg


    *My S85 adds about 5.7 rated miles per minute before the taper kicks in. A P100D should get to about 190 rated miles before the taper kicks in and gets 105 MPGe on the highway vs. 90 MPGe in an S85. So a P100D should take about 24.8 minutes to go from 25 to 190 rated miles (165 miles / 6.65 miles per minute = 24.8 minutes).
     
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  18. R.S

    R.S Member

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    Now as we know the 100 packs use the same cells as the 90 pack, so logically they should be able to charge at the same C rate at any SOC. Of course there might be additional improvements through cooling, but the bare minimum should be 10% more power at any SOC.
    We also know that Tesla has upgraded their Superchargers to 145 kWh.

    The question now is, why doesn't the P100D go for more than 120kW when charging? It still seems to top off at 120kW, but they have a pack that could charge with more power and Superchargers that could handle it. I can't see a reason why they don't use that potential, even if it would decrease charging times by only a couple of minutes.
     
  19. mikeash

    mikeash Active Member

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    Could it be that the Supercharger hardware isn't capable of providing more than 120kW to a single car, or that Tesla's connectors are limited to 120kW?
     
  20. Chris_WDO

    Chris_WDO Member

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    #20 Chris_WDO, Oct 15, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
    It is likely that going in excess of 120kW would cause too much heat and therefore power has to be lowered earlier in the process and thus could increase overall charging time.

    However, the difference in charging power at higher SoC looks far greater than the 11% higher cell count (assuming the cells are really the same as in P90D) could account for.

    To me, if cells ARE identical, the gain beyond those 11% can only be caused by improved cooling of the cells.

    Now heres my question: what about the power that can be extracted from the P100D battery system?

    We P85D owners all know that Power available fades with lower SoC, whether you have Ludicrous or not. Is the new 100kWh Pack so much superior in power delivery as it is receiving?
     

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