P3D+ misc info and pics- wheel weight, calipers, suspension

[jaboki]

@Brian N,

You’re right.....that lip is still there.....so it’s got to be a rotor thickness issue.

Ski

Weird that the rotor hats would be thinner than the regular models. I guess that means that the track is slightly narrower on the P+? Seems like spacers are the simplest solution.

Yea... So the PUP has thinner rotors.

Spacers are simpler but my worry is the shorter lug nut stud based on @FlyNavy01 comment: "I also only got 7 turns when torquing these lugs down with my wheels, and the rule of thumb for minimum thread engagement is the same depth as the diameter of the bolt (14mm in our case), which corresponds to ~9.33 turns."

 

[Daniel in SD]

Yea... So the PUP has thinner rotors.

Spacers are simpler but my worry is the shorter lug nut stud based on @FlyNavy01 comment: "I also only got 7 turns when torquing these lugs down with my wheels, and the rule of thumb for minimum thread engagement is the same depth as the diameter of the bolt (14mm in our case), which corresponds to ~9.33 turns."

Yeah I don't like the idea of running studs at exactly the safe limit either. I've read that you don't really need hub centric rings so as long as the center bore is big enough to accommodate the wider lip you should be fine. And of course someone may start selling hub centric rings with the notch or you could get some machined like OP.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Titan is building a custom wheel with the 3mm lip around the 64.1mm center bore so that the wheels will fit flush... and we got a group buy for forged mono-block lightweight wheels...@ $500 under retail cost....~$1900 depending on the size you pick for a set of 4...

Group Buy Poll for Mono-Block Forged Alloy Wheels by Titan 7

 

[jaboki]

Titan is building a custom wheel with the 3mm lip around the 64.1mm center bore so that the wheels will fit flush... and we got a group buy for forged mono-block lightweight wheels...@ $500 under retail cost....~$1900 depending on the size you pick for a set of 4...

Group Buy Poll for Mono-Block Forged Alloy Wheels by Titan 7

This might just be the best option. I actually like the look of the wheels too!

 

[Powered By Jay]

If a manufacturer can make thick aluminum rotor hats, that would be best. Not sure if it’s feasible with these rotors.

 

[FlyNavy01]

Yea... So the PUP has thinner rotors.

Spacers are simpler but my worry is the shorter lug nut stud based on @FlyNavy01 comment: "I also only got 7 turns when torquing these lugs down with my wheels, and the rule of thumb for minimum thread engagement is the same depth as the diameter of the bolt (14mm in our case), which corresponds to ~9.33 turns."

I think you mean thinner hats, the rotors themselves aren't thinner as that would be a downgrade in thermal capacity. Also want to clarify that the studs aren't shorter, that issue stems from the fact that my aftermarket wheels have a thicker back-pad than the stock wheels, with the spacers further adding to the problem, hence why I'm switching to 3mm spacers.

 

[Brian N]

I think you mean thinner hats, the rotors themselves aren't thinner as that would be a downgrade in thermal capacity. Also want to clarify that the studs aren't shorter, that issue stems from the fact that my aftermarket wheels have a thicker back-pad than the stock wheels, with the spacers further adding to the problem, hence why I'm switching to 3mm spacers.

Yup all of this

Yeah the studs aren't shorter. If you had a spacer that eliminated the lip then they should be the same length as non PUP cars. A correct size spacer would also fix this issue nicely. 3mm seems about right. If really paranoid you could just install aftermarket ARP studs or something of the like.

I just automatically went with the more expensive option since I planned on going that way anyhow lol. Especially since it seemed like they painted the rotor hats to prevent rusting but not sure how long that will last. I'm a little OCD. So better performing lighter rotors and better looks. Win win. (Minus the wallet)

Maybe someone can bring up the issue with Tesla if they aren't already informed about this issue? I mean I don't see how they aren't considering they machined the 20inch wheels to accommodate. But maybe they will change things if they knew the community's displeasure with it?

 

[N54TT]

Weird that the rotor hats would be thinner than the regular models. I guess that means that the track is slightly narrower on the P+? Seems like spacers are the simplest solution.

The track shouldn’t be narrower, because the stock 20” rims have a 5mm bigger offset than the 18 and 19’s. If you were to install the stock 19’s on a pup...without using a spacer...than yeh the track would be a few mm narrower. However, we don’t even know if the stock 19’s have the lip machined out like the 20’s though....or if you will need a spacer As well. But yeh a proper sized spacer the depth of that lip...would be the simplest solution. We’ll see once FlyNavy01 gets his 3mm spacer.

 

[jaboki]

I think you mean thinner hats, the rotors themselves aren't thinner as that would be a downgrade in thermal capacity. Also want to clarify that the studs aren't shorter, that issue stems from the fact that my aftermarket wheels have a thicker back-pad than the stock wheels, with the spacers further adding to the problem, hence why I'm switching to 3mm spacers.

Yes I meant thinner hats!

Oh, so your aftermarket wheels are a bit thicker than normal. Good to know!

 

[Perry]

I went with these 5mm spacers from Amazon. Only $22 for a set of 4 and they seem to fit just fine (see photo below). I'm still running the 20" wheels without the spacers for another few days, but here's a photo of testing fitting them on the front hubs.

5mm is small enough that it shouldn't create any issues while still clearing that small lip. I'll be leaving the hub bolt on since my aftermarket wheels have back-pad pocketing just like the stock wheels, but you should be able to leave it off without issue.
View attachment 325954

With a 35 offset rather than the stock 40 on the non-P and the 5mm spacer the wheel should poke out more. How much more does it poke out? Does it go outside the fender or is it flush. Picture?

 

[Perry]

Why do I regret getting my PUP, lol. I wonder if I can call them and remove this option since I had plans for wheels. I only got it for the calipers and original plan was to sell the wheels. Dang it! lol

Glad I ordered my P3D without the performance upgrade. I think the hats on the performance upgrade rotors are thinner so they expose that lip. I wonder if the Mountainpass Performance rotors I plan to get are also thinner to make them lighter or do they use other lighter materials and keep the thickness.

 

[Brian N]

Glad I ordered my P3D without the performance upgrade. I think the hats on the performance upgrade rotors are thinner so they expose that lip. I wonder if the Mountainpass Performance rotors I plan to get are also thinner to make them lighter or do they use other lighter materials and keep the thickness.

It has an aluminum hat which is thicker than the PUP rotors. Seem to be similar in thickness to stock rotors. Should not be an issue.

 

[Perry]

I think aftermarket rotors will alleviate the issue. Since I really think it’s the difference in the hat thickness between the regular and performance rotors that are bringing out this issue. I think they made the hats thinner to save weight. Since they are not aluminum.

Check out MPP video at time index 1:33 and notice that the hub has the lip on the regular RWD cars as well. I think it’s just not an issue because the rotors are thicker.

If I am correct we can just ask MPP or another manufacturer to create replacement rotors in the stock PUP sizes and we would be good to go. I planned on upgrading rotors anyhow. To something with an aluminum hat and directional vanes primarily for sprung/rotational weight savings. So if my suspicion is correct this will fix the hub issue at the same time.

Yep, if you look at 4:51 in that video there is no lip with this MMP rotor because it is the correct thickness. I think Tesla really screwed up their design for the performance upgrade and instead of going with light aluminum hats like MMP, they chose to thin their iron rotors instead, to save weight, causing this unwanted lip. To get around this issue, they custom machined their 20" wheels to correct for it but the downside is that none of the aftermarket wheels will fit unless you machine the wheels or use spacers.

The only good option is to have MPP or another manufacturer create replacement rotors in the stock PUP sizes but that defeats to whole purpose of getting the P+ and even so they would have to be made smaller than MMPs with inferior heat dissipation.

For future performance buyers who wish to not keep the stock 20" wheels, it seems like the better and more economical option is the P-.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Yep, if you look at 4:51 in that video there is no lip with this MMP rotor because it is the correct thickness. I think Tesla really screwed up their design for the performance upgrade and instead of going with light aluminum hats like MMP, they chose to thin their iron rotors instead, to save weight, causing this unwanted lip. To get around this issue, they custom machined their 20" wheels to correct for it but the downside is that none of the aftermarket wheels will fit unless you machine the wheels or use spacers.

The only good option is to have MPP or another manufacturer create replacement rotors in the stock PUP sizes but that defeats to whole purpose of getting the P+ and even so they would have to be made smaller than MMPs with inferior heat dissipation.

For future performance buyers who wish to not keep the stock 20" wheels, it seems like the better and more economical option is the P-.

Every manufacturer uses different center bores, offsets and lug spacing. It would be nice if there were fewer variations.
If you’re getting wheels with a custom center bore to match Tesla’s hubs I don’t see what the big deal is. Not hard for them to machine the center bore for the P3D+ hub.
Non Tesla specific aftermarket wheels have larger center bores so they should fit just fine. The 3mm spacer option seems fine too.
Obviously it sucks for people who don’t notice this subtle change in center bore.

 

[SD_Engnr]

Non Tesla specific aftermarket wheels have larger center bores so they should fit just fine.

They might fit "fine", but then you're dealing with a non hub-centric fitment. It's clear that Tesla's wheels are meant to be hub centric and not lug centric. For this reason, I am getting a custom hub centric ring made. Not ideal, but if it works, I prefer it over the spacer.

 

[Brian N]

Yep, if you look at 4:51 in that video there is no lip with this MMP rotor because it is the correct thickness. I think Tesla really screwed up their design for the performance upgrade and instead of going with light aluminum hats like MMP, they chose to thin their iron rotors instead, to save weight, causing this unwanted lip. To get around this issue, they custom machined their 20" wheels to correct for it but the downside is that none of the aftermarket wheels will fit unless you machine the wheels or use spacers.

The only good option is to have MPP or another manufacturer create replacement rotors in the stock PUP sizes but that defeats to whole purpose of getting the P+ and even so they would have to be made smaller than MMPs with inferior heat dissipation.

For future performance buyers who wish to not keep the stock 20" wheels, it seems like the better and more economical option is the P-.

I agree with most you statements here. However I am still think the P+ is worthwhile. Getting a 3mm spacer is a really cheap easy fix for the benefits of upgraded calipers and rotors. Then the rotors can be replaced down the line with aftermarket ones after a few track sessions.

Also even though replacements in stock sizes would be smaller than MPP 365 option. I see that was a benefit not a drawback. I really don’t think that this car will be held back by brake fade on the track mainly just battery temps. So having a lighter smaller diameter rotor is what I would want. Especially with TrackMode upping the regen capabilities the brakes will be less taxed. However for some reason if you did want a 365 or 385 diameter rotor it’s pretty simple for MPP or whomever to machine a new bracket to accommodate.

In my case I want a P+ for the upgraded calipers and superior pedal feel. I think the stock PUP size rotors are fine and am hoping top end brands like PFC with their v3 rotor or AP Racing come out with rotor replacements for our cars. They have superior internal vanes, metallurgy, and weight to stock rotors.

Lots of people prescribe to the lightweight wheels/tires program but forget having lighter rotors also helps reduce unsprung and rotational mass. Which will help both ride quality and performance. Since this car has so little to modify for increased performance I always planned on doing both.

 

[Daniel in SD]

They might fit "fine", but then you're dealing with a non hub-centric fitment. It's clear that Tesla's wheels are meant to be hub centric and not lug centric. For this reason, I am getting a custom hub centric ring made. Not ideal, but if it works, I prefer it over the spacer.

That’s a controversial subject. Haha. There’s nothing unique that I can see about Tesla wheels. They have tapered lug nuts so I think that they’re lug centric.
There’s a lot of internet debate about whether hub centric rings are necessary.

 

[gilscales]

I don't have measurements but I test fitted 19's on mine yesterday and they fit just fine. The 18" Aeros fit on the front but their inner barrel diameter is just a few mm too small to fit over the rears, so I'd imagine most all 19" wheels would fit.

Haven't put these on the car for good yet because there's a lip around the base of the center hub bore that prevents my wheels from mating flush to the surface of the hub (see second and third pic). Not sure if this is specific to just the Performance brakes, but I've ordered 5mm spacers with 70.5mm bore, which should be plenty to clear the ~3mm lip.
View attachment 325515 View attachment 325516 View attachment 325517

I have been a woodworker for over 30 years and although I have no machine shop experience I know it would not be that hard to cut a 1/8"x1/8" rabbet in the backside of an aluminum wheel with a carbide router bit, just start with a 1/2" flush trim bit and change out the bearing to 1/4" to make your own small diameter (small diameter to keep rpm of outside edges down) but still heavy duty 1/8" rabbeting bit, you can then use a variable speed router and even a speed control to further reduce rpms but with such a small amount of metal being removed it should not be a problem, you can make like 3 or 4 passes increasing depth each time so you are only removing 1/32" depth each pass until you get the required 3mm or so depth.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DGCTMNS/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1
get this kit and take the bearing off of the 1/4" bit and put it on the 1/2" bit, now you have a 1/8" rabbet bit

then head to Home Depot and get this quality compact variable speed router for $100, set it on its lowest speed (10,000 rpm) before using it, the good thing about Home Depot is after you use it and if you find out you don't like it then you can return it for a full refund so no risk
Makita 6.5 Amp 1-1/4 HP Corded Fixed Base Variable Speed Compact Router with Quick-Release-RT0701C - The Home Depot

this should be all you need besides some quality eye protection of course, I prefer a full face mask for a job like this
Bison Life Head Gear and Face Shield (Pack of 1)-BIS-HGF-18-1 - The Home Depot

Check out this youtube video of a guy using a small router to mill his 1/4" aluminum

 

[4sevens.com]

I'm thinking about trying some volks te37

 

[SD_Engnr]

I'm thinking about trying some volks te37

Do it! Just ensure the lug holes accept 14mm lugs, and if you're in a P3D+, you're going to need to account for the additional 3mm hub lip, as discussed earlier in this thread.