I had a chance to drive a P85+ loaner with air and 21s while my 2016 85D (air and 19s) was in service. Just wanted to give some reactions. This was an older non-AP car, VIN 23XXX. With the + suspension I was expecting a pretty uncomfortable ride but man that thing drove so well! Sure footed, but absorbing big impacts like sunken manhole covers much better than my 85D. No body roll whatsoever, and no floaty feeling like my 85D. It was a real blast to drive. I wonder if I can get some of that ride quality by moving to 21s. Seems counter-intuitive, but out of the 5 Tesla's I've driven now, the two that rode the best were the P85+ and the P90DL, both with 21s and air.
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P85+ loaner vs 85D
- Thread starter jmsurpri
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
I think the 21's do play a major role in the difference in ride quality. But, in switching to 21's you also inherit all the downsides like added tire wear/cost and increased susceptibility to road hazards like potholes. I recall Oregon having pretty nice roads so potholes might not be a concern and you could always keep the 19's for winter tires.
Here in California, I'm playing dodge-a-pothole every time I get in the car, makes for an engaging experience for the driver and a nauseating ride for my passengers
Here in California, I'm playing dodge-a-pothole every time I get in the car, makes for an engaging experience for the driver and a nauseating ride for my passengers
Whistle2Whine
Member
I think what you are wanting most likely are the anti-roll bars from the + package suspension and some Pilot Sport 2 tires (or comparable Conti Extreme or Pirelli). Most of your lack of body roll and more planted handling comes from those and the better anti-roll bars. The extra contact patch of the 21s might also be the difference. Since you have air and a dual-drive car, the + package anti-roll bars from the early-build P85D might be backward compatible with your car. Combined with better tires, that should do it for you.
I also had the chance to drive a P85+ loaner while my Ludicrous upgrade was being done on my P85D which has air suspension and 19s.
I was extremely impressed with the P85+. So much to the point that I was looking into purchasing a CPO P85+ after the experience.
kev1n
Active Member
like someone else mentioned, i think what youre feeling is the upgraded suspension bits that the + model comes with, the rear tires are also bigger but i doubt it will make a huge impact. I might have to go test drive a P85+ one day, i love my P85 but it really does feel like a boat. there is a lot of body roll in the turns.
Past. After convergence in Q1 2015, all use 24mm/20mm hollow sway bars. My guess is it was the air shocks that made many want out of the early P85D, not the bars. I don't believe there are any comments out there from someone retro-fitting 26/21 (which I think we're the P+ and early P85D parts). Quoting diameters from memory. Please, correct of wrong.
As a P85+ owner I could not agree more. I drove a loaner P85 and it felt almost "unsafe" or at least not "sure -footed" the + is so planted to the road and has a much more solid feeling about it and even with 21s the ride is pretty darn smooth with the air suspension. I actually think it would out handle my 911. I came close to buying a 85D when i bought mine because I thought that AP1 would be better for resale but the RWD P85+ is flat out more fun to drive. IMHO the only car that MIGHT be better is the early P85D with the + suspension. Tesla should bring it back as an upgrade option on new cars and with the power of a P100D I would think a + suspension would be almost mandatory.
OK, I'm driving a P85+ loaner this week. It does feel nice. But around my favorite corner it didn't come close to my now totaled 2001 Porsche Carrera 4. It felt like a really big car with a softer suspension. Granted I should be able to smooth it out with a few more attempts, and it didn't do anything bad, but I'd prefer the Porsche if that was all I was judging it by. Not sure I'd push my X that hard, but it seems pretty decent as well.
I hope you Porsche didn't get totaled around your "favorite corner" LOL (that would be ironic) and maybe a 911 is pushing the comparison a bit not to mention the fact that the rules for getting a 911 to handle are very different than any other car. Assuming your loaner P85+ has 21"s I would take that corner a few more times before giving it back. you may find that you are not really approaching its limits. On the other hand Tesla might prefer that the loaner comes back intact.. The fact remains that there is no other Tesla with the possible exception of a early P85D with the + suspension that feels as solid and "planted" as the P85+ and i think it would make for a very popular option if it was added to the options list for future P cars.
As for the 911... my last of the air cooled 1995 993 remains safely tucked under a car cover gaining in value and always ready for the occasional Sunday drive...
As for the 911... my last of the air cooled 1995 993 remains safely tucked under a car cover gaining in value and always ready for the occasional Sunday drive...
Yeah, 996 was probably the least valuable 911 model (early water cooled) when I lost it. Rear ended while stopped mid-block for traffic.
I really like the P85+, it does feel planted. The X rides a little high to be much competition for it, especially with all season tires! I haven't tried to push the X, but I love the steering feel. It goes where I point it and doesn't wander around. I'm slowing down enough that I don't miss the handling, but precise steering is still important. My wife and I were happy enough to actually steer the X during our road trip instead of using Autosteer.
I did get a second run through the corner and managed a pretty dramatic understeer a little earlier than I was expecting. I was a little disappointed since it does have 21's and Michelin PS2's. I went through a couple sets of PS2's on the Porsche before the last set of Super Sports.
It's my favorite corner because it has a pretty good runoff area and good visibility, in addition to my frequent usage. Though normally I'm not sliding through on my second try.
I really like the P85+, it does feel planted. The X rides a little high to be much competition for it, especially with all season tires! I haven't tried to push the X, but I love the steering feel. It goes where I point it and doesn't wander around. I'm slowing down enough that I don't miss the handling, but precise steering is still important. My wife and I were happy enough to actually steer the X during our road trip instead of using Autosteer.
I did get a second run through the corner and managed a pretty dramatic understeer a little earlier than I was expecting. I was a little disappointed since it does have 21's and Michelin PS2's. I went through a couple sets of PS2's on the Porsche before the last set of Super Sports.
It's my favorite corner because it has a pretty good runoff area and good visibility, in addition to my frequent usage. Though normally I'm not sliding through on my second try.
I've had two P85+ loaners while my pre April P85D with + suspension was in for service. The P85+ is a more compliant comfortable ride yet it's handling is far superior to that of my P85D+. I own both 19s and 21s and neither make that big of a difference so it's not the wheels. The P85D+ is harsh and unforgiving yet it doesn't handle corners as well as the P85+. The only advantage so far is powering out of corners which is better because of the AWD.
Blu Zap
Grinning member
Great thread to follow. I took delivery of my P85+ on 9/30/14. Just before the end of the model. But one of the first to be manufactured with AP1. There are only about 100 P85+s with AP. Estimated total of P85s and P85+s with AP1 is about 300. While the Ds came out a couple of weeks after I took delivery, I am delighted that I have got the RWD +. Handling and control are superior. It has a balanced bias and can be managed into a oversteer drift. Although at $400 per tire, that is not an often occurrence!
Tesla likely won't, and the difference may not only be the sway bars. The P85 shared air units with the other MS's (front 6006351-00-C, vs. P85+ - 6006351-04-A). If a P85 is early, like pre-7,000 VIN, it may also have the older sub-frame (a $3,700 Tesla job, if you search). The part numbers for early P85 and '+' don't give diameter for the sways, like they do the dual motor cars. They are, however, separate for the two RWD cars. I can confirm early/late dual-motor PD were 26/21 and later 24/21 mm.
Between your feedback, a couple used parts listings for the early PD air units and Tesla eventually dropping them, I don't think I'd want an early P85D SAS car. This is coming from someone who swapped out the lower control arms of a GT3, because they were too squishy. I don't think the firmness of the original P85D suits most, not in the strut anyway. Some like it, but having had a late loaner P85D, while my coil P85D was in for service, I don't think either is lacking in the transients. It's also not an affront, to me, that all dual motor cars share the same suspension (P100D manual updates notwithstanding). The roll center is so low that there isn't much travel to begin with. So, I am not sure the point in overly firming it up?
I found the early P85's used to porpois pretty bad on-throttle, in turns. In contrast, the dual-motor cars don't squat as much, and basically pull themselves flat. So, low roll and AWD are two reasons not to mess with what I think has evolved into a good thing.
I'll still be curious what somebody says, if they ever swap the sway bars.
3mp makes some good points... I would imagine that dual motor cars in general stay flatter than the RWD P85 and P85+. If I am understanding what he is saying... it seems that the D cars are already better than a regular P85 and adding the heavier sway bars to an AWD car may take it to the other extreme of too stiff which can be equally as difficult from a handling standpoint. Sorka confirms that theory with his comments about his early P85D being stiff and unforgiving.
It seems that the superior handling of the P85+ considers multiple factors from P Power, to RWD, to staggered tires, air suspension, etc. trying to recreate + handling when almost all of these other factors are different seems troublesome at best.
I am wondering if there is something that could be done that is "in between" the regular suspension and the + suspension. Maybe something as simple as different bushings may get closer to the feel of the + without getting too "unforgiving and harsh". You might need an engineering degree to figure that out though.
Blue Zap's P85+ with AP1 is the unicorn you should be chasing...
It seems that the superior handling of the P85+ considers multiple factors from P Power, to RWD, to staggered tires, air suspension, etc. trying to recreate + handling when almost all of these other factors are different seems troublesome at best.
I am wondering if there is something that could be done that is "in between" the regular suspension and the + suspension. Maybe something as simple as different bushings may get closer to the feel of the + without getting too "unforgiving and harsh". You might need an engineering degree to figure that out though.
Blue Zap's P85+ with AP1 is the unicorn you should be chasing...
Skateboardgolf
Member
Just wanted to pitch in - I absolutely love mine - I am on my second P85+. Sharpest-handling car I've ever driven, the ride is always comfy, and AP1 is a joy. Not to mention mine is possibly the last P85+ ever made, as the Service Center told me - the build date is January 2015.
Blu Zap
Grinning member
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