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P85+ trade to P85 ??

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by lolachampcar, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    I simply can not leave well enough alone and my wife will not let me play with her suspension (boy, that was loaded).

    Anyway, I had this crazy idea that I should just trade with someone who really wants a P+. Is there anyone out there with a COIL SPRING P85 in Red/Black that was considering trading up to or retrofitting to a P+?
     
  2. DIL

    DIL Member

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    Dude. This post. Is going to start a firestorm.

    1) Get ready for lots of bad jokes about your wife's "suspension" (apologies in advance)
    2) Can't wait to see what you eek out of a lowly coil P.

    Let's get started.

    BTW You are the ultimate tinkering hero.
     
  3. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    Yea, I kinda deserve the ribbing about the wife comment. Luckily, she is not on these forums.

    WRT that lowly coil P, I'm 99% sure I can make it "feel" better than a P+ and by feel, I mean more like an M5 than an E63. I just hope I do not end up eating those words :(
     
  4. SeminoleFSU

    SeminoleFSU Member

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    I have a coil black & tan... :)
     
  5. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    And I bet he's in Florida too, Lolachampcar. Go get 'em!
     
  6. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    Seminole and I talked when he first joined.....

    I am very attached to my Red/Black/Red Roof and would want the same car in a swap.
     
  7. mnx

    mnx 2013 P85

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    No luck on getting the SC to deactivate the air springs in your P85+?
     
  8. Smop

    Smop Banned

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    Why not just buy the springs and do a swap? Should be relatively easy and cheaper than changing your car out.
     
  9. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    mnx and Smop,
    I have tons of parts that have been donated from other cars along with coil spring damper units on the way to my Service Center. I've yet to hear back on my request to disable active air on my car and this is my preferred course. I love my car and would like to keep it. I was just running this idea up the flag pole in case Tesla decides not shut off the air for me.

    WRT to the cost of changing out the car, trading with someone looking to upgrade will allow me to claw back the P+ premium while allowing that person to get a full factory P+ configuration. It would also allow me to test my theory about the larger sway bars being a negative. If the ideal trade exists, it would be a win/win although I am under no allusions that there is a Red/Black/Red Roof dual charger tech sound P85 out there just itching to go P+ :)

    I think I just have too much time on my hands.
     
  10. Smop

    Smop Banned

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    The car still works fine even if you do not deactivate the Air Spring screen (simple change of Air Suspension to off which can be done in 30 secs or so by any ranger/service center). You can change the front sway bars pretty easily the rears require a bit more work.. Plus you can put your car back to P+ stock if you don't like the results of your experiment. :) I have a few of the smaller P sway bars that I can donate to your cause (If you were to go the swap route).
     
  11. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    Smop,

    Keeping and working with my current P+ is the ideal scenario.

    There is no doubt that it would take but seconds to de-activate the air suspension (version code air off in MB speak) provided the service personnel are allowed to do it. Normally I have the tools to do such things (StarDiagnostics, PWIS, etc.) but, in Tesla's case, there are no service tools available yet. I should know more later this week when I go down to pick up the a-arms and damper units.

    On the topic of sway bars, I may take you up on that (most generous) offer. Ideally, Tesla will aid me in my efforts and I can keep the car I have. Separating out the bar swap from the other changes would allow the best possible evaluation of different configurations.

    I think this car will be dynamite on springs at the right ride height.

    BTW, I see a Fisker every now and then and they never fail to cause a double take. They are a good looking car.
     
  12. Smop

    Smop Banned

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    From what I understand you don't even need the tool to turn off the air suspension on the Model S. You can access this from the touch screen display and deactivate options and features. In the early days it was rumored that lower config Model S' actually had the hardware of higher contented Model S' (but just deactivated).

    My dream Model S config is actually a coil spring P Model S (but with P+ bushings). I am just scared to see what a franken Model S will do to resale. This coupled with the fact that the car is still too heavy to really be 100% enjoyable has kept me away from tinkering any further with the suspension.

    The Karma still turns my head (even when I am in mine). The most underrated thing about the Karma is the handling. For a car that weighs 5300lbs they did an unbelievable job with the handling and steering feel of the car. I drove a new 911 that has the EPS and dare I say that the steering feel of the Karma was better (though suspiciously similar at muting certain road imperfections I would venture a guess that ZF somehow had a hand in the Karma's EPS). To me steering feedback is a very important part of the enjoyability of a car. Yes it is heavier than a 1 ton pickup and the straight line performance leaves much to be desired but there is something special about such a heavy car (with two heavy powertrains) pulling .91g on the skidpad. Would love to see a nivomat setup on the Model S as I think this would be a good compromise between air & coils. The car is a beast and heavy but the quirks is what makes it fun.
     
  13. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    I think you nailed the very core of my gut reaction to MS and why I use "feel" in place of handling. MS is big and, quantitatively speaking, is not going to ever "handle" like a 911. By the same token, I love the way something like a M5 feels on a day to day basis. It too will never get around a track like a 911 but I prefer the M5 to a 911 as a daily driver.

    My ideal is a MS that feels like a M5 or better. Given the chassis stiffness of MS, there is no reason to think this can not be done. It probably will not reach the M5 or Fisker's skid pad numbers if only for lack of tire (specifically, clearance for huge M5ish rubber) but it can still feel as good up to a lower overall grip limit.

    My work with upper links using stock bushings and zero compliance ball style bearings has shown me that the lower a-arms contribute almost all of the change in feel of the back between a P and a P+. Had my wife let me, we would already have a S85 lowered to somewhere between Low and Standard on an air car with P+ rear a-arms :) It will take a little longer to do it with my car but we will get there.
     
  14. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    +1 ;)
     
  15. simplesolar

    simplesolar Member

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    I own a cayenne turbo as well and even making the model S handle or feel like the cayenne I would be happy. The steering feel is just not there on the model S. With the wider tires up front (255's), it does help but still no feedback.
     
  16. dennis

    dennis P85D

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    @smop and I had a chance to get together for breakfast a couple of weeks ago when I was in LA. When I saw his Karma drive by, I had the same reaction: what a beautiful car! But I don't miss my Karma because I now have a lot more car in the MS: battery all the time, better performance, much more practical, carpool sticker, warranty (!), etc. Function over form.

    I agree that the steering feel in my P+ is lacking. But I find I can drive it from point A to point B at least as fast as my '06 M5. Even with the leaden steering feel, it feels great on turn in and goes exactly where I point it. And with the 1/2 ton of battery dead center and low in the car and the PS2's, my guess is the skidpad #'s are at least as good if not better than the Karma and the M5, which only pulled .89G in a Car and Driver comparo: We were surprised at the modest level of grip delivered by the Continental SportContact 2 tires — just 0.89 g.
     
  17. PRJIM

    PRJIM Member

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    Does anyone know if the steering could be improved via software update or is this a hardware issue? I too came from a sports car and find that the Model S steering setup is lacking.
     

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