P85D and P90D horsepower disagreement

[stopcrazypp]

Was anyone expecting 6921 hp at the wheels? I wasn't I was expecting 691 hp at the motor shaft. Heck, I'll even take 691 at the battery before any losses and still call it good. The P85D didn't even manage that at 100%. The highest theoretical it ever got at 100% SOC is 414KW(550hp) before any losses. It will have some losses by the time it hits the motor shaft which is where other manufactures specify hp. Tesla understated the horsepower on every other model S variant as proven on Dynos. Yet they overstated it on the P85D...by a lot.

Tesla made a specific promise of hp which directly implies at least a certain passing speed from 50 to 90 in a car with a specific weight which Tesla isn't even close to without it's new Inconel contactors and e-fuse.

I believe the point was that even though it may be misleading the way they presented the number, they only ever promised "691hp motor power". This is the same promise of "380 hp motor power" for the S60. You can't use the comparison to the other understated numbers (which they switched back to later on for the other models). And Tesla never made any claims of 50-90 performance. You can work out from the published 0-60 and 1/4 mile that there is little difference between the P85 and P85D in that respect.

I think the more valid criticism is over the promised update. While I know they increased the top speed to 155mph with an update, I'm not sure if that same update improved high speed performance in any significant way.

Edit, the following answers my question:
Version 6.1 Version 6.2 (.153)
0-60 MPH 3.14 3.05
0-100 MPH 8.303 8.13

Improvement in 0-60 is 0.09 seconds, improvement to 0-100 is 0.173 seconds, which means improvement 60-100 is 0.083 seconds. So there was roughly the same improvement in lower speed and higher speed performance.
http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-model-s-p85d-v6-2-performance-data-and-video

 

[dsm363]

Was anyone expecting 6921 hp at the wheels? I wasn't I was expecting 691 hp at the motor shaft. Heck, I'll even take 691 at the battery before any losses and still call it good. The P85D didn't even manage that at 100%. The highest theoretical it ever got at 100% SOC is 414KW(550hp) before any losses. It will have some losses by the time it hits the motor shaft which is where other manufactures specify hp. Tesla understated the horsepower on every other model S variant as proven on Dynos. Yet they overstated it on the P85D...by a lot.

Tesla made a specific promise of hp which directly implies at least a certain passing speed from 50 to 90 in a car with a specific weight which Tesla isn't even close to without it's new Inconel contactors and e-fuse.

I don't recall Tesla claiming that the MS handled better than the M5. Saying that they promised a car with sports car handling doesn't imply to me that they're making a comparison with any car for that matter. It's completely unqualified and not even an unqualified comparison to a specific car but not even compared to any car. Or is this wrong? Did they make a specific handling promise that it would be as good or better than some other car in a handling metric such a track time for a specific track using the same driver or a specific driver? They made skidpad promises with certain suspension, tire, and wheel setups which as far as I recall they meet or are very very close. Even then, verifying skidpad specs requires a driver with skill. Accelerating from 50-70 in a car that has x weight with y horsepower doesn't, especially when that car is an automatic or only has one gear.

They never said it would handle better than an M5 but with Performance in the name that implies performance handling to me. Just like the 691hp implied something to you. The problem was what you were looking for was never specially stated. Yes, the whole motor HP combined that is never actually achieved was not the way to go. I agree with that.

 

[brianman]

I would like the P85+ hardware for free then since that came out 6 months after my car was delivered. If we are asking for free things.

This would be a reasonably analogy if Tesla had advertised the P85 with specific cornering metrics that were not attainable in the P85 but were attainable with the later Plus package. Tesla did not do that. As such, this analogy is off the mark.

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I'm sort of torn about this. I understand those that are upset, but I'm not sure telling us something that they believe to be true at the time constitutes a promise or commitment. It is unfortunate that they couldn't deliver this for free, but I personally prefer them to give us glimpses of the future, even if they turn out not to actually happen.

Should we start taking bets on how much "the rest of" the thus-far-promised Autopilot features will require a hardware upgrade and what that upgrade will cost?

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(1) TBH, there are at least two "features" that they have discussed that I discounted immediately as improbable. I'm not convinced that the car will ever be able to drop you off and steer itself unattended into a parking space nor am I convinced that they will ever implement the (2) auto-connecting snake charging cord. I suppose at some point Tesla will have to become boring and not tell us about future features until they are in production, but I'll be sorry when that day comes.

Here's a good example.

If you are correct about (1), then Tesla was wrong to promise this -- they didn't tease it, they promised it as coming and people bought cars with the assumption that those cars would get it.

In contrast, (2) was a flippant comment about "something we're thinking about". No implied compatibility with existing cars. No cost noted. No timeline. Just "theory craft".

Tesla should do a lot more of #2 and a lot less of #1 going forward.

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@LetsGoFast had they not put it on the actual order page I would agree with you... But putting it on the order page makes it a completely different commitment to me. This is regarding the speed update. Snake and parking is in another league for me

Indeed.

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They never said it would handle better than an M5 but with Performance in the name that implies performance handling to me. Just like the 691hp implied something to you.

You read the same commitment level in "my car is fast, it's a performance car" as "my car has 691hp"? Really? Come on. You can really say that with a straight face?

 

[dsm363]

This would be a reasonably analogy if Tesla had advertised the P85 with specific cornering metrics that were not attainable in the P85 but were attainable with the later Plus package. Tesla did not do that. As such, this analogy is off the mark.

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You read the same commitment level in "my car is fast, it's a performance car" as "my car has 691hp"? Really? Come on. You can really say that with a straight face?

Yes I can. He's saying 691hp at motor implied a certain level of performance above 60mph to him. You've driven the P85. It's very soft in the back and seems to float at speed compared to something like an M5. I'm fine with it but the P85+ was definitely a fix for what the P85 should have been. And since we are asking for free things now then why not P85 owners too?

Did Tesla advertise a certain level of passing speed or performance with the P85D? As shown above, they technically did improve that with a software update as they promised although less than 0.1 second difference.

But some say they 'implied' something by listing the motor combined 691hp. They may have implied it but they didn't say it and if 60+mph is the metric you define as performance (like some would say taking a corner and having the car feel planted to road is) they you should have confirmed prior to ordering. I test drove the P85 so had a good idea of what I was getting prior to delivery.

 

[brianman]

You've driven the P85. It's very soft in the back and seems to float at speed compared to something like an M5.

IIRC, the "float" aspect is something that has been fixed in newer P85s and IIRC the "upgrade to current spec" for that is $3500. Unrelated to the discussion at hand, but something to consider for your Sig if you weren't aware and this behavior bothers you.

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You read the same commitment level in "my car is fast, it's a performance car" as "my car has 691hp"? Really? Come on. You can really say that with a straight face?

Yes I can. He's saying 691hp at motor implied a certain level of performance above 60mph to him. You've driven the P85. It's very soft in the back and seems to float at speed compared to something like an M5. I'm fine with it but the P85+ was definitely a fix for what the P85 should have been. And since we are asking for free things now then why not P85 owners too?

Did Tesla advertise a certain level of passing speed or performance with the P85D? As shown above, they technically did improve that with a software update as they promised although less than 0.1 second difference.

But some say they 'implied' something by listing the motor combined 691hp. They may have implied it but they didn't say it and if 60+mph is the metric you define as performance (like some would say taking a corner and having the car feel planted to road is) they you should have confirmed prior to ordering. I test drove the P85 so had a good idea of what I was getting prior to delivery.

I guess we just don't see it the same way on this one. I'm in the camp that says if they repeatedly harped on that near 700hp number and the car never delivers that from battery at any RPM at any SOC, then it's a huge misstep for Tesla. I put it in the "erosion of trust" category just like the "to the whole fleet" phrase that has become meaningless* when referring to Tesla vehicles. It makes me sad for Tesla, and for the future of EVs.

* Actually, that's not quite correct. It's become a contra-indicator. Lately when Elon says "whole fleet", I immediately assume that it definitely means "not the whole fleet".

I love the car. I love the tech. I love the engineering passion and excitement. I'm nauseated and disappointed by the invisible fine print.

 

[Andyw2100]

I love the car. I love the tech. I love the engineering passion and excitement. I'm nauseated and disappointed by the invisible fine print.

"Tesla: I love the car. I love the tech. I love the engineering passion and excitement. I'm nauseated and disappointed by the invisible fine print."

Someone should have T-shirts made up or something.

 

[sorka]

They never said it would handle better than an M5 but with Performance in the name that implies performance handling to me. Just like the 691hp implied something to you. The problem was what you were looking for was never specially stated. Yes, the whole motor HP combined that is never actually achieved was not the way to go. I agree with that.

No but an ICE car weighing x with y amount of power will do 50-70 in a pretty narrow range of time. The P85D is way way under that because it doesn't actually have 691 hp or even close to it. But because EVs have such flat power curves, if it actually peaked at 691, it would be far faster at any speed than an ICE car that peaks at 691.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

#FirstWorldProblems

 

[sorka]

Did Tesla advertise a certain level of passing speed or performance with the P85D? As shown above, they technically did improve that with a software update as they promised although less than 0.1 second difference.

They don't need to. If it actually had the power they used to claim but later stopped claiming, then it would have even better passing speed than the ICE that has the same peak power because EV has such a wide power curve(torque).

Of course if you start factoring other things in, it makes the power appear even more overstated. Power to weight ratios are big factors but there are other factors.

Air resistance: The MS is more efficient and has less drag than 99% of the cars on the road. It should be able to pass quicker at medium speeds compared to another ICE car that has the same power to weight ratio.

Power train loss: The MS has less power train loss than traditional AWD ICE vehicles because it doesn't have a flywheel, transmission, and transfer case. Typical AWD drive cars lose 20 to 25% from the motor shaft. My own testing which shows 498 at the wheels at 90% SOC with 409KW = 448 hp / 498 hp = 9.1% loss. Most rear wheel drive cars have a typical loss of 15%. The Model S, even the AWD version, is very efficient:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-times/page2?p=1077103&viewfull=1#post1077103

 

[vvanders]

I'm with #FirstWorldProblems, you've got a car that's quicker than 99.9% if other cars out there.

EV drive trains are inherently different. If you don't like it go back to an ICE or another EV that has better performance characteristics.

 

[Andyw2100]

I'm with #FirstWorldProblems, you've got a car that's quicker than 99.9% if other cars out there.

EV drive trains are inherently different. If you don't like it go back to an ICE or another EV that has better performance characteristics.

What is so hard for people (almost 100% of whom did not buy the car, so have no skin in this game) to understand about the fact that we can like our P85Ds very much, but still be concerned about the fact that we paid for something we thought we were getting but did not get? That is, for me, the bottom line. I like to get what I pay for.

 

[dsm363]

What is so hard for people (almost 100% of whom did not buy the car, so have no skin in this game) to understand about the fact that we can like our P85Ds very much, but still be concerned about the fact that we paid for something we thought we were getting but did not get? That is, for me, the bottom line. I like to get what I pay for.

And you almost certainly will. If Tesla says 'we thought we could deliver autopilot but have determined we are not able to do so' or this drags on into next year then your case is obviously very strong. At this point it's late but not definitive delivery date was given either. I'd simply ask for a refund on the Autopilot hardware fee and can always buy it later once the software is released. Tesla might charge the $3,000 then but at least you'll know the software is out and that it works. There are more than one thing that was supposed to be on my car that wasn't delivered so while I don't have autopilot hardware I understand the premise.

 

[sorka]

I'm with #FirstWorldProblems, you've got a car that's quicker than 99.9% if other cars out there.

EV drive trains are inherently different. If you don't like it go back to an ICE or another EV that has better performance characteristics.

Yes, they are different. They they are superior to ICE cars in every aspect of power delivery. If this was an ICE car that only made 555 hp, it would be even slower than it is. The problem is the power delivered is so far below what was speced, before they removed it from their website, that even the superior power band characteristics aren't enough to make up for it.

And the P85D is slower than 100% of all cars that claimed to have a power to weight ratio of 1 hp for every 7 lbs from a 50 MPH roll.

Nobody is complaining about 0-60. That's awesome and great and everyone agrees. What folks are complaining about is that the P85D doesn't pass on the highway as it would or should if it actually had the hp they claimed it had, but not longer do so as they have removed it from their website.

Man I'm really starting to sound like a broken record.

 

[Arbitrage]

To me, it seems with high certainty that they've basically done everything they could via software and with the current hardware. The current P85D, as of today, is about as good as it will ever get. Every single one of the AWD cars have "effective HP" lower than the "total motor power" number. 85D is something like 522 motor HP vs 417 real HP. Only the RWD ones are close. It sort of makes sense, like 2 people on a bicycle isn't going to double the speed of the bike. Ideally, they should have listed both but it's Tesla. They have communications problems and that part sucks. Pretty much real HP is never going to equal motor HP for AWD.

They're sort of trying to make it up and save face with the "discounted" ludicrous upgrade to replace some hardware to get better performance. And that seems to be the end of the road. I guess people could try to ask for a free upgrade but it seems unlikely that they'll budge much here. At that point, I guess it's stick with the current P85D, get the upgrade or get rid of it until something better comes along. I personally don't see Tesla offering anything else soon for P85D owners, especially for free.

However, it doesn't seem like a great idea to get the upgrade while there are no real numbers out yet. Otherwise, it might be the same thing of paying for something that doesn't meet expectations. Better let someone else be the guinea pig.

 

[Andyw2100]

And you almost certainly will. If Tesla says 'we thought we could deliver autopilot but have determined we are not able to do so' or this drags on into next year then your case is obviously very strong. At this point it's late but not definitive delivery date was given either. I'd simply ask for a refund on the Autopilot hardware fee and can always buy it later once the software is released. Tesla might charge the $3,000 then but at least you'll know the software is out and that it works. There are more than one thing that was supposed to be on my car that wasn't delivered so while I don't have autopilot hardware I understand the premise.

Wrong thread. We're talking about the missing horsepower here.

The poster I was responding to had written (I'm paraphrasing now, but had quoted the post originally) that our cars were faster than most other cars out there, and if we weren't happy, we should go back to driving ICEs.

 

[vvanders]

What is so hard for people (almost 100% of whom did not buy the car, so have no skin in this game) to understand about the fact that we can like our P85Ds very much, but still be concerned about the fact that we paid for something we thought we were getting but did not get? That is, for me, the bottom line. I like to get what I pay for.

Oh I understand. Many people ordered the S85D when it was supposed to get 10% better efficiency than the S85. In reality its closer to 2-3%.

It just seems like beating a dead horse at this point. It's just a number with no real applicable metric since no car makes peak HP across the whole powerband. Heck I remember Supras that were abysmall in the 1/4 mile but would be insane at freeway speeds.

Different cars have different strengths and all that

 

[dennis]

So the real problem here is that at no point does the P85D output more than 545 HP and it therefore only has 1 hp for every 9 lbs instead of the claimed 1 hp for every 7 lbs.

Oops, sorry, @sorka has already posted that 50 f*****g times.

 

[gordo]

So the real problem here is that at no point does the P85D output more than 545 HP and it therefore only has 1 hp for every 9 lbs instead of the claimed 1 hp for every 7 lbs.

Oops, sorry, @sorka has already posted that 50 f*****g times.

Yeah, I mean I'm not sure what the point of this thread is anymore. Where is Mclary when you need him? (ok, so wrong forum)

We can yell until we're blue in the face trying to convince other anonymous forum members that Tesla royally screwed up the messaging around the P85D launch, but it doesn't matter. All that matters now is that we either decide to pay them $5k + labor or we don't. Let's just hope the labor doesn't eat up too much of our $5k "discount".

 

[Matias]

If I had P85D and would live in USA, I would likely start Class action -lawsuit.

Reason for this is, that I think, it is the only way to get compensation from Tesla.

Disclaimer: IANAL. I don't own P85D and I don't live in USA.

 

[Johan]

Who cares how many horsepowers it has as long as it performs the way Tesla says, 0-60, quarter mile etc.

Comparing EV horsepowers to ICE horsepowers is apples to oranges to start with.