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P85D First long trip, range data, etc...

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,783
12,593
Hickory, NC, USA
At Burlington NC supercharger... this outlet mall is hell to get into today...

Charged to 168 at south hill. Drove here 110.2 miles using 43.6 kWh at 396 Wh/mi arriving with 25 rated miles... in insane mode.

Was "impossible" to drive efficiently when I was challenged three times on this stretch. Some BMW (smoked) some mustang (smoked) and a newer corvette (tied 80 to 130...)

At that rate I guess 396 isnt bad for this stretch. I've gotten that with my P85.

So far my conclusion is that the P85D is slightly less efficient than my P85, even when accounting for 21s...

Third time today a supercharger has landed me with "Unable to charge." Working on the 2nd stall tried. Gonna call tesla...
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
For what it's worth the mileage/range test procedure requires a minimum of 1000 miles be on the test car and components therin (though that wear doesn't all have to be in the same vehicle and it doesn't have to be actual driving, e.g. the battery can just be put through simulated driving charge/discharge cycles). For what is actually driven it has to follow a specific driving profile that's mandated by the EPA.

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Third time today a supercharger has landed me with "Unable to charge." Working on the 2nd stall tried. Gonna call tesla...

I had this problem with my new S85 back in September. Jiggle the cord a bit and it will usually fix it. When the SC had my car to replace the steering wheel (due to a loose piece of leather) I had them look at this. They said it was normal, newer vehicles had a tighter receptacle and my car matched what they'd seen in other cars. I'd imagine once the charge port wears a bit it'll stop doing that.
 

Andrei

Member
Dec 9, 2014
30
51
Canada
has anyone heard anything directly from Tesla on the status of "normal" mode?

Yes! Elon Musk himself during the P85D presentation said: 'Three settings: Normal, Sport, and Insane'. But then somehow this 'Normal' setting was dropped. I want it back!


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Here's the direct link to the time in the video where he says it (sorry, I'm unable to edit the above post): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ6lZJWL_Xk#t=314
 
Last edited by a moderator:

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
Yes! Elon Musk himself during the P85D presentation said: 'Three settings: Normal, Sport, and Insane'. But then somehow this 'Normal' setting was dropped. I want it back!

Looks like you will get it back:
Elon Musk on Twitter:

Quoting Elon here for those that can't read follow the link (or don't want to bother):
Software update to achieve max efficiency (going to full idle on 2nd motor) is not out yet. Range of P85D should then closely match P85+.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,783
12,593
Hickory, NC, USA
Made it to my destination.

120.5 miles, 47.1 kWh, 391 Wh/mi. Drove with traffic, 75-ish. Left with 218 rated miles, arrived with 65.

In summary... definitely not as efficient as my P85, despite the highway MPGe being higher. No way. No how.

The exact same stretch from Burlington to here in worse temperatures (38F compared to almost 50F this time) and probably higher speeds (I set the cruise to 78 usually...) yielded 120.8 miles, 42.8 kWh, 354 Wh/mi. It did start raining near the end of this leg, but didn't seem to affect my energy graph much at all...

The time before that in my P85 in nicer weather (70s) I left here and went straight to South Hill, VA. 229.2 miles, 68.9 kWh, 300 Wh/mi. The total for those legs today: 230.7 miles (I did miss a turn at Burlington and have to turn around...), 90.7 kWh, avg of 393 Wh/mi. And honestly, only the first time I took this trip in the P85 did I hold back. Since then I've just driven like I didn't have a range limit and it has just been efficient.

I kind of miss my P85 now...

- - - Updated - - -


Wonder if this is partially in response to my shaking the tree. I sent an email to ownership and my DS expressing my dissatisfaction with the efficiency I was seeing in comparison to my P85 earlier today.

"Range of P85D should then closely match P85+"... yet they originally said it would be more efficient than single motor... not "match." *sigh*
 

SteveG3

Active Member
Supporting Member
Sep 21, 2012
4,013
15,450
US
Made it to my destination.

120.5 miles, 47.1 kWh, 391 Wh/mi. Drove with traffic, 75-ish. Left with 218 rated miles, arrived with 65.

In summary... definitely not as efficient as my P85, despite the highway MPGe being higher. No way. No how.

The exact same stretch from Burlington to here in worse temperatures (38F compared to almost 50F this time) and probably higher speeds (I set the cruise to 78 usually...) yielded 120.8 miles, 42.8 kWh, 354 Wh/mi. It did start raining near the end of this leg, but didn't seem to affect my energy graph much at all...

The time before that in my P85 in nicer weather (70s) I left here and went straight to South Hill, VA. 229.2 miles, 68.9 kWh, 300 Wh/mi. The total for those legs today: 230.7 miles (I did miss a turn at Burlington and have to turn around...), 90.7 kWh, avg of 393 Wh/mi. And honestly, only the first time I took this trip in the P85 did I hold back. Since then I've just driven like I didn't have a range limit and it has just been efficient.

I kind of miss my P85 now...

- - - Updated - - -



Wonder if this is partially in response to my shaking the tree. I sent an email to ownership and my DS expressing my dissatisfaction with the efficiency I was seeing in comparison to my P85 earlier today.

"Range of P85D should then closely match P85+"... yet they originally said it would be more efficient than single motor... not "match." *sigh*

wk057... matching is certainly significantly better than what you thought you were seeing today (a future of rearranged routes based on suspected decreased range), yes?

I get that they could have handled the presentation of information better. I think you can make a case that while not necessarily technically dishonest, they could have been more honest in presentation. I say not technically dishonest, because my recollection is the presentation October 9th was ambiguous as to whether the 85D, or both the 85D and P85D would have better efficiency... what's more, technically if P85D matches P85+ efficiency, you're probably looking at an improved efficiency from AWD partially offset by the monster performance tweak of a couple hundred plus added HP.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,783
12,593
Hickory, NC, USA
wk057... matching is certainly significantly better than what you thought you were seeing today (a future of rearranged routes based on suspected decreased range), yes?

I get that they could have handled the presentation of information better. I think you can make a case that while not necessarily technically dishonest, they could have been more honest in presentation. I say not technically dishonest, because my recollection is the presentation October 9th was ambiguous as to whether the 85D, or both the 85D and P85D would have better efficiency... what's more, technically if P85D matches P85+ efficiency, you're probably looking at an improved efficiency from AWD partially offset by the monster performance tweak of a couple hundred plus added HP.

Sure, I'm not going to argue with *any* increase in efficiency at this point...

ON a side note, I will compile all of my numbers from today and detail it tomorrow.
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
Wonder if this is partially in response to my shaking the tree. I sent an email to ownership and my DS expressing my dissatisfaction with the efficiency I was seeing in comparison to my P85 earlier today.

I'm certain that they're getting a lot of feedback on this. Someone in another thread mentioned sitting next to Barry Bond who went into a service center to complain about the mileage he was getting out of the P85D. I know I sent an email to my Owner Advisor pointing at these results and asking for an explanation.

"Range of P85D should then closely match P85+"... yet they originally said it would be more efficient than single motor... not "match." *sigh*

This may just be him hedging his words. It could also just be that you've got a performance geared car. It's amazing enough that a performance AWD car that does 0-60 about a second faster than the P85+ should get nearly as much mileage.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,783
12,593
Hickory, NC, USA
Well, this trip has proven to me that the rated miles display is pointless. We need other options for that spot. KWh remaining? % battery? Custom range based on user defined Wh/mi? If it's virtually impossible to get the "rated" range in real world conditions, why bother displaying it? Give me something more useful.
 
Well, this trip has proven to me that the rated miles display is pointless. We need other options for that spot. KWh remaining? % battery? Custom range based on user defined Wh/mi? If it's virtually impossible to get the "rated" range in real world conditions, why bother displaying it? Give me something more useful.

Especially if one drives like a P85D can drive. Did a 230 mile round trip, 440 w/m average. It's so hard to keep it under 100 on newly paved rural roads...
 
... yet they originally said it would be more efficient than single motor... not "match." *sigh*

Wow that is a hard pill to swallow, and hard to comprehend how they could think that 2 motors with 2 drivetrains and 2 inverters with 2 extra drive shafts could exceed or even match a single motor system.

i've never read or heard about an idle mode of a back-driven motor shaft that can make up for the extra weight of the system and the angular momentum of the rotating masses, plus there will be a residual magnetism in the rotor that generates an emf when back-driven that will oppose the forward motion like a hysteresis brake. This seems not to be a digital software issue that firmware can solve, but is just basic physics and Maxwell's equations. Or maybe it's in one of those all our patents are that i haven't read yet...
 

andrewket

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2012
5,704
1,542
Thanks, wk507 for sharing. It's useful information. I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic that "normal mode" will get us very close to P85/P85+ range and may exceed it under ideal conditions. It would have been nice to know going in that the software would take additional time. I almost drove the P85D across the country. That would have been a mistake, so it seems.
 

vgrinshpun

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Apr 5, 2013
5,895
22,944
PA
"Range of P85D should then closely match P85+"... yet they originally said it would be more efficient than single motor... not "match." *sigh*

I think that Elon meant matching the EPA range; the P85D range at steady 65mph may still prove to be higher than P85.

Regarding all the data from your trips, they are very useful, however I think that the only true comparison between the P85 and P85D could be done by running two cars contemporaneously, on the same road, in a convoy.

Given the amount of time I spend hunting around to find definitive answer to the question of the comparative efficiency of P85D, with not much to show for it, I was wondering whether it makes sense to spend some time to get that definitive answer by testing two cars contemporaneously, on the same road.

I was wondering if you will be interested to test your P85D against my P85+ following each other along the same route. We can meet at the Delaware supercharger, charge to same level, set tires to the same pressure, etc. We then can drive south along the Rt.95 for approximately 33 miles to the next rest area (Maryland House Rest Area), and back to the Delaware supercharger, cruise control set to 65mph.
_______________________________________________

Updated: This can be done one time before the update promised by Elon (one motor idling), and then another time after the update.
 

sandpiper

Active Member
Sep 25, 2014
2,833
2,322
Ontario, Canada
Wow that is a hard pill to swallow, and hard to comprehend how they could think that 2 motors with 2 drivetrains and 2 inverters with 2 extra drive shafts could exceed or even match a single motor system.

i've never read or heard about an idle mode of a back-driven motor shaft that can make up for the extra weight of the system and the angular momentum of the rotating masses, plus there will be a residual magnetism in the rotor that generates an emf when back-driven that will oppose the forward motion like a hysteresis brake. This seems not to be a digital software issue that firmware can solve, but is just basic physics and Maxwell's equations. Or maybe it's in one of those all our patents are that i haven't read yet...

It depends on the relative gains & losses of course. There is a gain to be had by driving a motor at closer to optimal rpm. With 2 gear motors that can be switched out you effectively have a 2 speed transmission. I guess the expectation is that the gain offsets the loss of back driving the other gear motor. Without the curves, nobody can really comment on whether this is possible or not.
 

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