P85D Ludicrous Pre-Order Upgrade Available 9/25/15

[Andyw2100]

Didn't the software update Tesla released with the 3.1 second update also slightly speed up higher speeds (0.08 seconds)? Yes it's nothing but it's still an improvement. Tesla said nothing about how big an improvement. Obviously they were going for something a lot more but that ended up needing hardware.

I'm pretty sure the language about the high speed performance improvements remained long after the update that improved the 0-60 time from 3.2 to 3.1 seconds.

Also I think it is fair to say that the .08 second improvement in the quarter mile time (I believe that's what it was, right) that you are referencing, that no one would be able distinguish without some sort of high-end electronic timing mechanism, could not possibly have been the improvement being promised by the language on the website. Any reasonable person (or judge) would say, "Come on---less than 1/10th of a second, over more than eleven seconds--you're kidding, right?"

 

[AWDtsla]

I'm pretty sure the language about the high speed performance improvements remained long after the update that improved the 0-60 time from 3.2 to 3.1 seconds.

Also I think it is fair to say that the .08 second improvement in the quarter mile time (I believe that's what it was, right) that you are referencing, that no one would be able distinguish without some sort of high-end electronic timing mechanism, could not possibly have been the improvement being promised by the language on the website. Any reasonable person (or judge) would say, "Come on---less than 1/10th of a second, over more than eleven seconds--you're kidding, right?"

You know what drag racers would do or pay for a tenth quicker time? Murder may not be out of the question.

This came for free.

This really stinks of "Internet neckbeard is not impressed"

 

[Super_Popular]

$7500 give me a break. That price is Ludicrous.

But hey it's your money......but don't expect to see that full amount back when you sell your car. And I bet next year Tesla will reduce the price.

 

[Andyw2100]

maybe you should do some more research?

I actually said I was planning on doing exactly that, in the post you quoted from. Waiting to see what others think of the update is doing research.

I can't really research what Tesla publishes about what the update is supposed to do, because the information Tesla publishes has proven to be unreliable. People here have been highly critical of others who take Tesla at their word on things. They say to wait until you see something from Tesla before you believe it. So there's no more research to be done on that front.

I can't help but think, though, that your comment, wasn't really suggesting I do more research as much as it was another attempted jab at me, since your attempt earlier was moderated away to the snippiness thread. (Why you're choosing to take shots at me I still have not figured out.) When I had suggested that you do more research, it was after you stated this:

i hate to tell you, but every car delivered in December of 2014 came right off the same batch-lot at the factory. Whether you got yours on the 12th or 31st was simply a transport-logistics issue. They are the same damn cars.

If you still believe this, I would again urge more research, as it is simply not true.

 

[sorka]

Didn't the software update Tesla released with the 3.1 second update also slightly speed up higher speeds (0.08 seconds)? Yes it's nothing but it's still an improvement. Tesla said nothing about how big an improvement. Obviously they were going for something a lot more but that ended up needing hardware.

Well if you're talking about a 1/4 mile run then the .1 seconds knocked off from 0-60 would also knock that off the 1/4 mile time. The update pushed the power band slightly wider so that peak power comes a little earlier but that wouldn't improve acceleration at speeds greater than where maximum power is already delivered. Since peak power of 414KW hits at 36 MPH, we'd have to see an increase in peak KW output to see an improvement in high speed maneuvers.

That said, I strongly suspect what Tesla meant by this is that the speed limiter was moved from 135 to 155. So perhaps Tesla should have said a software update to increase top speed, but that's not what they said.

 

[Andyw2100]

You know what drag racers would do or pay for a tenth quicker time? Murder may not be out of the question.

This came for free.

This really stinks of "Internet neckbeard is not impressed"

The thing is we're not talking about drag racers. We're talking about regular people who were promised a high speed performance update, ordered the car based on that, and then found that this update amounted to nothing more than .08 seconds over a quarter mile.

And again, I believe that would only apply to some of the people. Others would have ordered --AFTER-- that update had already been pushed, while the information about the coming improvements were still on the website.

The fact that Tesla left the information on the website after pushing the update is pretty solid evidence that Tesla --DID NOT-- intend for the .08 second improvement over the quarter mile to be the "high speed performance improvement."
[/QUOTE]

What specifically was promised with a 'high speed performance update'. Could that not be the top speed being raised as mentioned above? How many tenths of a second is the legal definition for a 'high speed performance update'? I assume you see where I'm going with this. Yet again Tesla was rosy with their language and vague at best. You took it to mean something very specific and when it turned out to be not what you expected you (maybe rightfully so) are upset with Tesla. That doesn't mean you have a legal case here. I'm not sure but I assume we'll see at some point.

 

[lolachampcar]

Andy,

I was clear.
My recollection was an over the air upgrade that would provide performance not seen outside the factory. Elon made this comment long after I ordered my PD thus it was not part of my purchase decision. Given my recollection, I have no need to tell anyone who ordered the car anything.

 

[Andyw2100]

Andy,

I was clear.
My recollection was an over the air upgrade that would provide performance not seen outside the factory. Elon made this comment long after I ordered my PD thus it was not part of my purchase decision. Given my recollection, I have no need to tell anyone who ordered the car anything.

We're having a discussion about Tesla, the company, and their practices. We're not discussing our individual experiences with the company. I asked how you felt about an issue concerning the company and some of its customers. I wasn't asking you to tell anyone who ordered the car anything. I was basically asking how you would justify Tesla's position to them, if you think it is justified. I was really asking how you felt about this specific issue, because you've said that you are OK with Tesla telling us about things they are doing as if they are happening, even if sometimes they fail to actually happen.

...what would you tell those customers who bought while that promise that never materialized was on the website? They purchased with the promise of a free high-speed performance increase coming, and then are being asked to pay $7500 for it. Does this seem right to you?

Your not answering a pretty straightforward question pretty much provides the answer. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that answer is inconsistent with your other stated feelings, which is why you are reluctant to provide the answer.

 

[lolachampcar]

Andy,
You win. Can we move one now?

 

[dsm363]

I'm pretty sure the language about the high speed performance improvements remained long after the update that improved the 0-60 time from 3.2 to 3.1 seconds.

Also I think it is fair to say that the .08 second improvement in the quarter mile time (I believe that's what it was, right) that you are referencing, that no one would be able distinguish without some sort of high-end electronic timing mechanism, could not possibly have been the improvement being promised by the language on the website. Any reasonable person (or judge) would say, "Come on---less than 1/10th of a second, over more than eleven seconds--you're kidding, right?"

Yes, it's a minuscule improvement at best but it's still an improvement. If you really think a judge would look at that an say it wasn't an improvement I'm not sure what to say. I'm not kidding. All Tesla has to prove is that there was an improvement, not that it was big enough to satisfy you or anyone else since they didn't specifically say how big the improvement would be (and it wasn't in a contract either). I know that's not what you want to hear but not sure what else to say at this point.

 

[Andyw2100]

Andy,
You win. Can we move one now?

Sure.

I have a great deal of respect for you, lola. I don't think we disagree all that much, as much of what we've both posted has shown. I think the crux of what we disagree on is that you are more forgiving of Tesla, and willing to let them do their thing, with an eye on the greater good, which is admirable. I'm more of a pragmatist, if you will, and think that if some of their "fast and loose" practices don't change, it's going to get them in trouble, so I'd rather see them change now.

My P85D is far and away, by a factor of more than three, more than I've ever spent on a car. Except for my house, it is by far my largest purchase. I, like you, and like probably most everyone here, want to see Tesla succeed. We just have slightly differing views on the path they need to take to that success.

 

[Andyw2100]

Yes, it's a minuscule improvement at best but it's still an improvement. If you really think a judge would look at that an say it wasn't an improvement I'm not sure what to say. I'm not kidding. All Tesla has to prove is that there was an improvement, not that it was big enough to satisfy you or anyone else since they didn't specifically say how big the improvement would be (and it wasn't in a contract either). I know that's not what you want to hear but not sure what else to say at this point.

But as I pointed out, they left that language on the website after the .08 second improvement, so that is pretty solid proof that was not the improvement they had been talking about.

And as for the comment about the judge, the language talks about the car being "better than you experienced." If I were an attorney arguing on the side of those suing Tesla, I would argue that since it is impossible for a human being to notice a .08 second improvement over a quarter mile, it can't be "experienced", and thus this could not have been what Tesla had been referring to.

 

[dsm363]

But as I pointed out, they left that language on the website after the .08 second improvement, so that is pretty solid proof that was not the improvement they had been talking about.

And as for the comment about the judge, the language talks about the car being "better than you experienced." If I were an attorney arguing on the side of those suing Tesla, I would argue that since it is impossible for a human being to notice a .08 second improvement over a quarter mile, it can't be "experienced", and thus this could not have been what Tesla had been referring to.

Might be but seems like a lot of money and effort to go after vague language when you might not win. Tesla sold the Roadster sport for $14,000 over the Roadster and that was a 0.2 second improvement to 60 which isn't much either. And I'm not sure what compensation or damages you would be seeking. If you will only be happy with getting rid of the car maybe Tesla will buy back the car and put it into their loaner/CPO fleet. The Ludicrous upgrade doesn't provide the hp numbers you are seeking at the wheels or shaft either apparently so a free upgrade there wouldn't solve this issue. Basically, I think your expectations (rightly possibly) with the language Tesla used don't match up with reality anymore and Tesla won't be offering a solution that would satisfy you. I'm not sure you can say no human on earth could perceive that difference. 0.8 seconds is 'better', not much but it's better so fits with their definition. Even 0.01 seconds would match the imprecise word 'better'.

 

[Andyw2100]

Might be but seems like a lot of money and effort to go after vague language when you might not win. Tesla sold the Roadster sport for $14,000 over the Roadster and that was a 0.2 second improvement to 60 which isn't much either. And I'm not sure what compensation or damages you would be seeking. If you will only be happy with getting rid of the car maybe Tesla will buy back the car and put it into their loaner/CPO fleet. The Ludicrous upgrade doesn't provide the hp numbers you are seeking at the wheels or shaft either apparently so a free upgrade there wouldn't solve this issue. Basically, I think your expectations (rightly possibly) with the language Tesla used don't match up with reality anymore and Tesla won't be offering a solution that would satisfy you. I'm not sure you can say no human on earth could perceive that difference. 0.8 seconds is 'better', not much but it's better so fits with their definition. Even 0.01 seconds would match the imprecise word 'better'.

I'm not planning on suing Tesla. I'm talking about others who might choose to go that route.

I'm pretty happy with my car as is. What I'm not happy about is the idea that to get closer to the performance that in retrospect many of us thought we had paid for up front, we're now being asked to shell out another $7500. But even that isn't my primary concern.

My primary concern, as I mentioned in the last message I directed to lola, is that Tesla may be headed in the wrong direction with respect to how they handle issues like these. There have been a whole lot of these types of things, where Tesla seems to be letting customers down, instead of exceeding expectations. I'm very concerned that eventually it is going to catch up with them, at which point the consequences might be much more severe than if Tesla just dealt with the issues now, and then changed their practices moving forward.

 

[electrish]

I am not a technical person and maybe I am completely misinterpreting the technology as well as Andy's intentions, but I think that he may just feel lied to, which I can very well relate to as I hate it more than anything else when it happens to me. It's about respect.

Again, I know very little about the vehicle's technology, but I am still baffled by how Tesla is refusing to alter the way they report the P85D's horsepower on their ordering website, when they changed the way all other cars are reported and how JB is trying to explain the whole issue on the blog.
Also, the 85D's performance jumped dramatically with an over the air update, whereas the P85D's did only improve marginally.

My feeling after reading Lola's explanation a few pages back is that the expected performance, which is ludicrous mode now, may have already been reflected in the hp numbers reported on the site. Tesla then realized that it was unable to meet these numbers with an over the air update, as was possible for the 85D and instead required a costly hardware upgrade.
I know it's probably a very poor comparison, but this may be similar to the next generation seats, which were shown in the design studio and were ordered by many, but then weren't available, or didn't fit, or had non-functioning airbags, so they were retrofitted at no charge to the owner, as they became available.
If the above non-educated assessment of the performance situation were true, one could then understand people expecting that the ludicrous update was handled similarly to the seat upgrade.

More technically inclined people will probably have no problems in pointing out the flaws in these arguments.

 

[lolachampcar]

This could very well not sound right but seems like it needs to be said. I hesitated at posting it. Please do not take it the wrong way.

I have been exposed to dozens of cars that well exceed the PD's price tag. In the rarified air of ultra high performance, the BS is incredible. The PD actually plays a bit in this rarified air so the HP numbers they specify as maximums per motor are not all that bad a representation of the car's performance PROVIDED you understand the difference between BeV and ICE.

For example.......
My PD will put a car length or two on a McLaren MP4-12C and hold that lead for a surprising amount of time. The Mac is spec'd north of 600 hp and the Tesla is almost 2000 lbs heavier.
The PD outperforms the 12C off the line.
The PD will jump the 12C if both find each other on the highway and decide to have a go.
The 12C will leave the PD like it is chained to the porch over 80 mph.
The PD will slow to what feels like a Prius pace if you try to track one or push too hard for anything more than a very short period of time.
The launch control on the 12C far exceeds the ability of almost any human to launch an F1 (Mc's street version) thus I think it is safe to say the PD, in its current form without Ludicrous, would put a hurting on an F1 on the way to 60 mph should they ever meet in the wild.
These are just simple facts of life.
For me, the PD is a hell of a value when comparing it to a $275K McLaren (or Ferrari, Lambo, etc.) when it comes to raw performance in limited areas.

Complaining about Tesla's combined motor hp would be like complaining about usable hp after a few laps. Neither makes any sense at all. When you have apples and oranges, you have to go back to the dirt common denominator to do any kind of comparison. In this case, the dirt is the rubber hitting the road. Anyone considering purchasing a performance BeV should understand they are quick, they are not fast and they have no stamina when compared to an ICE.

 

[yo mama]

Whatever, people. Tesla builds cool ass ****. I'm not 100% satisfied with my experience with corporate, either. But the bottom line is that some of y'all are whining about one of the best cars ever built. Maybe you feel lied to, and I understand that. But a lot of this sounds like whining about the hottest model ever not being *quite* as hot as advertised. She's still the hottest model ever.

 

[andrewket]

So... hey, Tesla is taking pre-orders for L mode. Progress! (Trying to get back on track and away from yet another discussion about HPgate).

 

[vgrinshpun]

Looks like P90DL hits 480kW/643hp in this video by Dragtimes, while making 0 to 100 in 7.7 seconds.

Dragtimes P90D Ludicrous 0-60mph and 0-100mph video

 

[scottf200]

Looks like P90DL hits 480kW/643hp in this video by Dragtimes, while making 0 to 100 in 7.7 seconds.

Dragtimes P90D Ludicrous 0-60mph and 0-100mph video

815 according to this calculator

0-100 mph Calculator
Image: http://i.imgur.com/3JLXrCf.png