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P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

aznt1217

Active Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,556
1,831
New York, NY
I spent around $160,000 on a P85D. Part of my buying decision was based on the performance figures advertised. I believe they intentionally misled the consumers. The intent in advertising of the higher horsepower numbers had an intent and purpose to induce a purchase.

Car buffs like myself believed the advertised specs. I constantly tell my fellow car buffs it produces 691 HP but it does not!
The intent was to mislead to induce a purchase and yes, that's what they did. That's not right. I like the car. Not sure I would have shelled out as much money on the P85D if I knew the true performance specs were less.

Whether this is misleading advertising is whether it is legal or not will be up to the Legal system. I just don't like being intentionally misled. I'm sure all this negative press and lower specs will affect my realsale value as well. That's not right and must be dealt with.

As a "car buff" you should know that things vary with what manufacturers claim. Real world is all that matters, you can still take virtually any car off the line. Not sure what's the big deal. The 0-60 time is still excessive on 4 door family sedan that takes 0 gas.

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If that is the case, then this is really blown out of proportion.

It's been since day one. You always hear people with Lambos and Ferrari's saying I have xx and X horsepower. Oh you do? At what rev range do you get the full power? When do you get full torque. Nobody digs into that.
 

Jaff

Active Member
Aug 15, 2010
3,135
318
Grimsby, Canada
Frankly, it is a stupid controversy. The absolute number one issue about cars is that they poison life on Earth and dangerously, criminally warm the atmosphere. Elon is trying to help save the planet and some people complain about hp !? It is like complaining about your comfort in the middle of a crucial battle during WWII. Insane !


This ^^^^
 

Vitold

Active Member
Aug 10, 2015
1,688
1,786
NM
From the article:

The shaft power of the P85D's motors, however, "often exceeds the battery electrical horsepower available.

If above is true, than at some point P85D does offer full advertised power. Both EV and ICE advertise peak power, no one expects that full power will be available at all speeds. ICE outputs full power at certain RPMs and so does EV like Tesla.

Now, I also heard an argument that P85D battery is unable to output 700hp which would change things. However, none of the two articles listed by OP mention that so I don't know if that's an issue here.
 

Matias

Active Member
Apr 2, 2014
3,334
3,674
Finland
The fact, that at some point in power curve P85D is not battery limited, doesn't mean it delivers 691 hp. To my understanding, when starting from full stop and flooring the pedal, at some point during acceleration car is not battery limited but torque limited, but at that point motors are not producing 691 hp.
 

NorCalSJ

Member
Aug 14, 2014
136
0
Silicon Valley
Frankly, it is a stupid controversy. The absolute number one issue about cars is that they poison life on Earth and dangerously, criminally warm the atmosphere. Elon is trying to help save the planet and some people complain about hp !? It is like complaining about your comfort in the middle of a crucial battle during WWII. Insane !

you're missing the whole point.....Tesla advertises the P85D has X, I purchased the vehicle based on Tesla's representation but the vehicle only produces Y. This has nothing to do with, "cars is that they poison life on Earth and dangerously" or "criminally warm the atmosphere"
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,396
3,366
Phoenix, AZ
WarpedOne, if the battery cannot deliver the power, why state it, other than to get people to pay the extra money for it? I get your nitpick, "motor power", BUT, if you are going to nit pick, it also doesn't state anywhere that the 0-60 numbers are on a horizontal surface powered by motors, so you wouldn't have any problems if they advertised acceleration of a Model S when driven off the cliff, dropped from a plane, or fired out of a large cannon, right?

A 600 CFM muffler attached to an engine that can only generate 300 CFM in exhaust is still a 600 CFM muffler. Just because the engine cannot fill the pipe doesn't change the muffler specification. Isn't this an analogous situation?

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They were honest in the sense that Coca-Cola would be honest if they advertised their soft drinks as "100% fat-free". It's technically correct, but it's misleading for the customer as it causes the customer to think that the product is better than it really is.

Welcome to marketing...

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The car need the Ludicrous update to do the advertised 0-60 mph in 3.1 sec without! 1 ft rollout (That Tesla did just add info on the website 1 month ago) and to perform at least 640hp that is closer to 700hp than 550hp it makes today. Still not the advertised motor power (Motor power is the power the engines can make from the battery or the fuel pump and injectors on a gas car, it is not ) But that will be an solution I can accept. We have very good buyer protection laws against false advertisement in Norway so i'm not concerned with the proof we have that the car does not deliver what was promised by Tesla.

The European Union, in which you live, requires by law that Tesla advertise motor power. That is exactly what they did. I think your issue may be more with your governments than with Tesla.
 

yo mama

Supporting Member
Jul 22, 2015
463
164
san jose, CA
Here's what I don't understand. As long as the 0-60 is "as advertised" who really cares how many horse/motor power it takes to deliver it? I'm *not* saying HP/MP are meaningless numbers, but aren't they just a means to an end, namely performance? In an (obtuse sort of) way, this feels like grammar nazis going after a technically incorrect Oxford comma. Yes, you're correct and very smart and I agree with you from a technical perspective. But from a practical perspective, if it doesn't really affect the ultimate user experience is it really that big of a deal?
 

Pete85D

Member
Jul 14, 2015
30
5
Marengo, Illinois
This is silly. If owners really think they can sue as a class, they have to show damages "as a class." I'm unaware of any residual value hit anyone would take if horsepower is 550 or 650 and not 691. When I slam mine it's still a thrill to me and any suspecting or unsuspecting passenger whether I am doing 3.1 or 3.3 seconds to 60. If there is an acceleration/power performance difference between various Tesla models (70D vs P85D as an example) Tesla can justify the price difference. The price is independent and totally unrelated as to how it compares to a Hellcat or RS7 or Panamera Turbo. Now if the Ludicrous upgrade doesn't produce any measurable performance improvement over the standard P85Ds that most of us have while charging a $7,500 upgrade, it would present a different "damages" argument.

I sold an Audi A8L to buy the Tesla. It was an Audi Exclusive model with a $30K upgraded interior over a standard Audi. I bought it with 6,000 miles on it and didn't pay a dime more for the upgraded interior. When I sold it, I didn't get a dime worth of consideration for the upgrade either. When we sell our Teslas they are going to be worth what they are worth and I doubt the value will be driven either way by a 100HP or .2 second 0-60 time. If someone is possessed with 0-60, quarter mile results or measured horses they should buy a Viper. I drive the Tesla because I viewed it as a beautiful, high end sedan with incredible performance with all wheel drive, not a Corvette. I believe I got what I wanted.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,518
5,463
While I disagree with the details about the P85D motor controversy, I think owners do have a right to complain to Tesla no matter how small the issue is relative to the overall car.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,396
3,366
Phoenix, AZ
you're missing the whole point.....Tesla advertises the P85D has X, I purchased the vehicle based on Tesla's representation but the vehicle only produces Y. This has nothing to do with, "cars is that they poison life on Earth and dangerously" or "criminally warm the atmosphere"

If we're talking about Tesla's representations, I'd be more upset about the claim that the net cost (after savings) is under $600/mo. But then again, I've never purchased a car where the most important consideration was horsepower and being able to reproduce the manufacturer's specification.
 

Dennis87

Member
Nov 15, 2014
364
198
Norway
The European Union, in which you live, requires by law that Tesla advertise motor power. That is exactly what they did. I think your issue may be more with your governments than with Tesla.

Any link to to where that law is written, if its the law why was it perfectly ok to not advertise that motor power on the earlier models like the P85? And why is the only power that Tesla specify to the government and the only shown on our car registration card is continuous power?

Also Norway is not at part of the European Union (EU) ;) Yes Norway is in Europe but we are not a country that is a member of EU so we don't have to follow the rules like example Denmark and Sweden does. But we follow some of them if we want :p

European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
As a "car buff" you should know that things vary with what manufacturers claim. Real world is all that matters, you can still take virtually any car off the line. Not sure what's the big deal. The 0-60 time is still excessive on 4 door family sedan that takes 0 gas.

The principle area where the inaccurate horsepower rating affects the performance of the car is 40-80. If the car delivered the advertised horsepower, it would accellerate more quickly through that range.

It's been since day one. You always hear people with Lambos and Ferrari's saying I have xx and X horsepower. Oh you do? At what rev range do you get the full power? When do you get full torque. Nobody digs into that.

Most car enthusiasts do know that is true. The problem is that there is no part of the range where the P85D delivers 691hp ever.

If above is true, than at some point P85D does offer full advertised power. Both EV and ICE advertise peak power, no one expects that full power will be available at all speeds. ICE outputs full power at certain RPMs and so does EV like Tesla.

Now, I also heard an argument that P85D battery is unable to output 700hp which would change things. However, none of the two articles listed by OP mention that so I don't know if that's an issue here.

It is an issue. The car never, ever approaches 691hp under any condition. Strubel's blog post is misleading because it is technically true that the battery is sometimes the limitation that prevents the car from reaching 691hp, but it is always true that the battery will prevent the car from reaching 691hp. It just happens that sometimes the car is limited to an even lower number of horsepower by something else (usually traction).

This is silly. If owners really think they can sue as a class, they have to show damages "as a class."

A false advertising claim would not rely on diminished value analysis. In 2002 Hyundai was sued for inflating horsepower numbers. The amount of error ranged from 5-20hp. They settled and reported that they would pay between $76 and $127 million in damages. A few years ago a group of lawnmower manufacturers settled a class action regarding inflated horsepower claims also for several million bucks. If someone could prove that Tesla advertised an inaccurate horsepower rating, it is likely to prove very expensive for Tesla.

Tesla might prevail under an argument that it was too hard to provide accurate horsepower information, I don't know. They may be able to say that they were fine to advertise the motor's potential horsepower ratings and add them together even though they knew there was no possibility to produce that amount of horsepower at the same time in the car. I have no idea and I'm not remotely interested in pursuing it. Nonetheless, it was wrong of Tesla to advertise a number that was misleading at best. The way they advertise now by expressly labelling it as "motor power" and no longer summing the two numbers together is better, although still not ideal.

I love my car, signed up for the ludicrous update the first day it was announced and put down my deposit within minutes of learning the web page was up. The car absolutely delivers the 0-60 performance and quarter mile performance they claimed and I'm happy to be able to pay them to make it even faster. It is an amazing car and I'm even glad that Tesla offers features that please the folks like Freudianly, although I don't assign very much value to them personally. I'm not exactly sure why its cool for him to describe people who value the performance of the car as "stupid and emotional" but I've been called much worse.

The car is so phenomenal that they should have just advertised the absolutely amazing measurables and provided accurate system horsepower outputs or made it clear from the outset that 691hp was a theoretical maximum output of the two motors on a bench that was physically impossible in the actual car.

I also have not yet seen anyone who can explain how the car was capable of 691hp "motor power" before the ludicrous updgrade and is now capable of 762hp "motor power" after the upgrade, when the engines are 100% unchanged. If the previous number was the result of bench testing unconnected to the battery pack, how come they now generate a higher number when the only thing that changed was the battery pack? It seems to me that you can't have that both ways.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,396
3,366
Phoenix, AZ
Any link to to where that law is written, if its the law why was it perfectly ok to not advertise that motor power on the earlier models like the P85? And why is the only power that Tesla specify to the government and the only shown on our car registration card is continuous power?

Also Norway is not at part of the European Union (EU) ;) Yes Norway is in Europe but we are not a country that is a member of EU so we don't have to follow the rules like example Denmark and Sweden does. But we follow some of them if we want :p

European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JB's own blog post is the reference, to wit: "The motor shaft horsepower, when operating alone, is a more consistent rating. In fact, it is only this (single or combined) motor shaft horsepower rating that is legally required to be posted in the European Union." Based upon this statement, I don't think Tesla even has to say "motor power" in the EU. It can simply say "HP" because that HP rating in an EV is assumed to mean "motor shaft horsepower" per the EU regulations. I have no idea what the regulations are in Norway or Denmark.

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I also have not yet seen anyone who can explain how the car was capable of 691hp "motor power" before the ludicrous updgrade and is now capable of 762hp "motor power" after the upgrade, when the engines are 100% unchanged. If the previous number was the result of bench testing unconnected to the battery pack, how come they now generate a higher number when the only thing that changed was the battery pack? It seems to me that you can't have that both ways.

Tesla could have easily updated some of the power electronics, or even just the firmware, to allow the motor to accept higher current loads thereby increasing the theoretical HP even though the battery cannot deliver enough current to satisfy the motor's new theoretical limit. I'm just guessing, of course.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,518
5,463
The way they advertise now by expressly labelling it as "motor power" and no longer summing the two numbers together is better, although still not ideal.
I just wanted to point out that from day one of dual motor launch they advertised with "motor power" (only exception pointed out so far was in Denmark where they used "hp performance" because of a bad translation). It was not a recent change. The removal of the summing happened in the March-April 2015 time frame.

I also have not yet seen anyone who can explain how the car was capable of 691hp "motor power" before the ludicrous updgrade and is now capable of 762hp "motor power" after the upgrade, when the engines are 100% unchanged. If the previous number was the result of bench testing unconnected to the battery pack, how come they now generate a higher number when the only thing that changed was the battery pack? It seems to me that you can't have that both ways.
I have explained that in many occasions. The 85D went from 188 hp to 259 hp with only a software update to motor controller with 6.2. The P85D front motor spec being updated from 221 hp to the same exact 259 hp should not be a surprise. The tests being discussed, while not including the battery, does include the motor controller and inverter.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,396
3,366
Phoenix, AZ
More P85D problems for Tesla, check this thread:

My P85D doesn't go past 133MPH. I thought the limit was 155MPH?

Looks like there are a bunch of P85Ds out there with bad speed sensors that will not allow the car to exceed 133 MPH, yet Tesla is not notifying affected owners and letting them know about a service bulletin to address the problem. Some who have taken their car in for annual service also did not have the issue remedied by service, and only became aware of the problem when the car did not achieve the advertised top speed.

Tesla, why are you being secretive with your P85D owners and why are the service centers not proactively applying this service bulletin to all affected P85D cars?

Suggest P85D owners better test their top speed, it may be that you have other issues with Tesla than just the HP rating.
 

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