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P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
11,110
6,246
More P85D problems for Tesla, check this thread:

My P85D doesn't go past 133MPH. I thought the limit was 155MPH?

Looks like there are a bunch of P85Ds out there with bad speed sensors that will not allow the car to exceed 133 MPH, yet Tesla is not notifying affected owners and letting them know about a service bulletin to address the problem. Some who have taken their car in for annual service also did not have the issue remedied by service, and only became aware of the problem when the car did not achieve the advertised top speed.

Tesla, why are you being secretive with your P85D owners and why are the service centers not proactively applying this service bulletin to all affected P85D cars?

Suggest P85D owners better test their top speed, it may be that you have other issues with Tesla than just the HP rating.
I suspect that is technically a customer service campaign (and a low priority one since going 130mph vs 155mph is extremely rare). Technical service bulletins (TSBs) are required to be published to NHTSA, but customer service campaigns are not and are only addressed when the owner brings it up as a problem (not proactively applied). This is common industry convention.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/class...vice-campaign-whats-the-difference-story.html
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,414
4,106
Phoenix, AZ
I suspect that is technically a customer service campaign (and a low priority one since going 130mph vs 155mph is extremely rare). Technical service bulletins (TSBs) are required to be published to NHTSA, but customer service campaigns are not and are only addressed when the owner brings it up as a problem (not proactively applied). This is common industry convention.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/class...vice-campaign-whats-the-difference-story.html

Whatever it's called, it's completely wrong for Tesla not to notify owners that their cars cannot meet the top speed specifications. The rarity of anyone driving to 155 MPH is not the point.

Oh wait... is the top speed theoretical, too, like the horsepower? lol
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
Tesla could have easily updated some of the power electronics, or even just the firmware, to allow the motor to accept higher current loads thereby increasing the theoretical HP even though the battery cannot deliver enough current to satisfy the motor's new theoretical limit. I'm just guessing, of course.

Except we don't have to guess. Tesla provided details about the changes and have told us that they involve a fuse and a new contactor. Neither of which would be involved in testing under the EU regulations. If we accept Strubel's blog post at face value, the hp used is purely a measure of the output of the motor on a test bench and the only thing that could be changed that would affect that is the motor itself, which Elon assured us was not involved in the ludicrous upgrade. The only other possibility is that they knew there was already headroom in the motor test figure -- they could have claimed 800 or 900 or even 1,000 hp if they wanted to since the motor itself could output even more power if you weren't concerned about actually providing that power in the car or about the long term effect on the motor's health.

- - - Updated - - -

I have explained that in many occasions. The 85D went from 188 hp to 259 hp with only a software update to motor controller with 6.2. The P85D front motor spec being updated from 221 hp to the same exact 259 hp should not be a surprise. The tests being discussed, while not including the battery, does include the motor controller and inverter.

Neither the motor controller or inverter is being replaced in the ludicrous upgrade.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
11,110
6,246
Whatever it's called, it's completely wrong for Tesla not to notify owners that their cars cannot meet the top speed specifications. The rarity of anyone driving to 155 MPH is not the point.

Oh wait... is the top speed theoretical, too, like the horsepower? lol
That's your opinion about the importance, but the industry convention appears to be that the hierarchy is focused on safety:

1) major safety issue (Recall, requires notification of owner)
2) common issues with some safety implications (TSBs, requires publishing to NHTSA)
3) issues rarely occurring or noticed and with little or no safety implications (Customer Service Campaigns).

- - - Updated - - -

Neither the motor controller or inverter is being replaced in the ludicrous upgrade.
You missed my point: the software is surely being upgraded with the ludicrous upgrade. That is enough to change the power out of the motors. Again, the only difference between the two versions is the software (besides from the battery), just like how the S85D's 188 hp motor power increase to 259 hp was purely from software.

This is not inconsistent with the European ECE R85 because it specifies using a "Standard-production equipment" "Speed variator and control device" (AKA motor controller), which would have whatever firmware version it had at the time of test. If Tesla updated the firmware afterwards, the motor power can be different (higher or lower depending on what changes they made).

- - - Updated - - -

Any link to to where that law is written, if its the law why was it perfectly ok to not advertise that motor power on the earlier models like the P85? And why is the only power that Tesla specify to the government and the only shown on our car registration card is continuous power?

Also Norway is not at part of the European Union (EU) ;) Yes Norway is in Europe but we are not a country that is a member of EU so we don't have to follow the rules like example Denmark and Sweden does. But we follow some of them if we want :p

European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
At least for the UK registration V5C, the power number is supposed to be filled out with the maximum net power line from the EU certificate of conformance, not the continuous power rating. The EU certificate of conformance for the P85D as all three numbers listed (continuous, maximum, 30 minute).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...hread/page44?p=1167551&viewfull=1#post1167551

For some reason, for the P85 the V5C is filled out with a continuous number (this saved people a considerable amount of insurance costs). I haven't seen one for a P85D so it is unknown if this practice is continued. However, I'm not sure if it benefits owners to take this issue up. All it will do is increase insurance costs (and perhaps taxes if there are taxes based on this number).
 
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Dennis87

Member
Nov 15, 2014
364
202
Norway
At least for the UK registration V5C, the power number is supposed to be filled out with the maximum net power line from the EU certificate of conformance, not the continuous power rating. The EU certificate of conformance for the P85D as all three numbers listed (continuous, maximum, 30 minute).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...hread/page44?p=1167551&viewfull=1#post1167551

For some reason, for the P85 the V5C is filled out with a continuous number (this saved people a considerable amount of insurance costs). I haven't seen one for a P85D so it is unknown if this practice is continued. However, I'm not sure if it benefits owners to take this issue up. All it will do is increase insurance costs (and perhaps taxes if there are taxes based on this number).

My insurance company list P85D as with 700 DIN HP (691 SAE) So I pay more than I have to since the car only make 550hp or 640hp with ludicrous.
 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,442
Ithaca, NY
And everyone here that made such a big deal of it (you know who you are) should take your first victory lap. Congratulations.

I'm not sure how much of the "you know who you are" is directed at me, but I certainly have been vocal about this issue here, so I think it is safe to assume that I'm included in that group, so I'm going to respond.

If my goal had been to get this issue into the mainstream press I assure you I could have accomplished that goal a long time ago. As soon as I heard that the letter to Musk I was working on had been picked up outside TMC I slowed down my plans on that, resulting in the letter having fewer signatures than it otherwise would have, because I did what I could to keep the profile as low as possible from that point on. I didn't include pointers to the threads in any of the threads I had planned to, etc. I didn't comment on the article. I didn't post on the Tesla Forums. I basically just followed through on what I had started at that point.

It would have been very easy to send links from that "Learn Bonds" article to various journalists, including those that have a history of being anti-Tesla if the goal was to get the story into the main stream media. I did not do that, and it's pretty clear others here didn't either.

This issue didn't become more mainstream news until Tesla's blog post, which may or may not be a response to the letter.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
11,110
6,246
My insurance company list P85D as with 700 DIN HP (691 SAE) So I pay more than I have to since the car only make 550hp or 640hp with ludicrous.
Well, that would appear to be the correct way of accounting for HP according to the EU regulation. It was not supposed to be based on continuous power in the first place or a net power. Basing it on continuous only works for ICE cars because it is typically the same as the peak number or really close.
 

DoctorJJ

Member
Nov 14, 2014
102
11
Oklahoma
Just to be clear, anyone who says the P85D doesn't perform as advertised is simply wrong. It performs better than advertised. It was said to be 0-60 in 3.2 and 1/4 mile in 11.8. It consistently tests 0-60 in 3.1 and 1/4 mile in 11.6. The 1 foot rollout is industry standard and has been forever, with every other car tested, ICE or whatever. Also, if you couldn't tell that it wasn't going to be as fast on the top end as it was on the bottom end, well, you aren't really a performance buff to begin with. It may not make the "advertised" power, and that certainly is a gripe, but don't confuse power made with performance realized. This car performs better than advertised. This may be semantics to some, but to me, there is a difference.
 
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wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,740
12,315
Hickory, NC, USA
Just to be clear, anyone who says the P85D doesn't perform as advertised is simply wrong. It performs better than advertised. It was said to be 0-60 in 3.2 and 1/4 mile in 12.8. It consistently tests 0-60 in 3.1 and 1/4 mile in 12.6. The 1 foot rollout is industry standard and has been forever, with every other car tested, ICE or whatever. Also, if you couldn't tell that it wasn't going to be as fast on the top end as it was on the bottom end, well, you aren't really a performance buff to begin with. It may not make the "advertised" power, and that certainly is a gripe, but don't confuse power made with performance realized. This car performs better than advertised. This may be semantics to some, but to me, there is a difference.

12.6 in the 1/4 would be terrible. I'd be in for service immediately.

Fortunately Dragtimes has the P85D around 11.6 in the 1/4. :)

As for "HPgate", I'm done with that topic entirely. Too many headaches, too few lap dances. Plus somewhere along the lines I also realized that I wasn't haven't a good time with this topic....

deadhorse.GIF
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
Just to be clear, anyone who says the P85D doesn't perform as advertised is simply wrong. It performs better than advertised. It was said to be 0-60 in 3.2 and 1/4 mile in 11.8. It consistently tests 0-60 in 3.1 and 1/4 mile in 11.6. The 1 foot rollout is industry standard and has been forever, with every other car tested, ICE or whatever. Also, if you couldn't tell that it wasn't going to be as fast on the top end as it was on the bottom end, well, you aren't really a performance buff to begin with. It may not make the "advertised" power, and that certainly is a gripe, but don't confuse power made with performance realized. This car performs better than advertised. This may be semantics to some, but to me, there is a difference.

I mostly agree with you and have made more or less this point in one of the dozen threads on this subject, but I do have a small quibble. 1 foot rollout is an "American car industry standard" not a universal standard. Also, the key metric that demonstrates the car's weaker performance at the top end isn't so much the 11.6 quarter, but the trap speed of 115. The closest comparable car I've driven (Mercedes CLS63 AMG) has 577 hp and turns out a 1/4 of 11.7, getting just nipped by the P85D, but does it at a trap speed of 122.7 mph. The trap speed wasn't available when I bought the car, but I suspected it would be slowish. I'd still buy the car again today, no doubt at all. But Tesla should provide accurate specifications.
 

jthompson

JThompson
Supporting Member
Frankly, it is a stupid controversy. The absolute number one issue about cars is that they poison life on Earth and dangerously, criminally warm the atmosphere. Elon is trying to help save the planet and some people complain about hp !? It is like complaining about your comfort in the middle of a crucial battle during WWII. Insane !

Amen....and some Tesla owners need to get a life and realize what is important and what is not. Too many whiners and complainers on TMC for me
 

ToddRLockwood

Active Member
Sep 11, 2012
1,317
82
Burlington, Vermont
Amen....and some Tesla owners need to get a life and realize what is important and what is not. Too many whiners and complainers on TMC for me

Agreed. If the actual performance of the car was overstated, that would be a different story. Horsepower and torque comparisons between electric and gasoline cars are misleading because the drivetrains play a significant role in how those forces translate into performance. Even dyno comparisons have to be taken with a grain of salt because they don't take into account the mass of the vehicle. Reminds me of the audiophile world, where there's a tendency to rely on numbers instead of the sound.
 

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