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P90D delivery Thursday Autopilot answers per rep

themacs

Member
Nov 28, 2014
113
12
san clemente, CA
I'm taking delivery of my P 90 D Thursday. Every option except cold climate, 3rd row seats and "L" (just couldn't see 10K for what you get).

I asked about the autopilot and was told this:

"Yes, your Model S will have the 7.0 software, with the full Autopilot convenience package active, including the Auto Lanekeeping and Auto Lane Change!"

I have not followed all the questions and concerns of owners about the autopilot issues and expected promises etc.

I pressed a little harder about what the car could and couldn't due, such as "drive itself" and got these answers:

"It is not a fully autonomous car yet, so you won’t be able to summon the car to pick you up. That is the vision, and part of the continuing development and refinement.

(from Wikipedia)

In the United States, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has proposed a formal classification system:[9]

Level 0: The driver completely controls the vehicle at all times.
Level 1: Individual vehicle controls are automated, such as electronic stability control or automatic braking.
Level 2: At least two controls can be automated in unison, such as adaptive cruise control in combination with lane keeping.
Level 3: The driver can fully cede control of all safety-critical functions in certain conditions. The car senses when conditions require the driver to retake control and provides a "sufficiently comfortable transition time" for the driver to do so.
Level 4: The vehicle performs all safety-critical functions for the entire trip, with the driver not expected to control the vehicle at any time. As this vehicle would control all functions from start to stop, including all parking functions, it could include unoccupied cars.

The 7.0 software places your Model S in Level 2. The best use case would be on-ramp to off-ramp highway driving.

Level 4 would be what you mentioned about the car picking you up with no one behind the wheel. No car is able to do that yet, but we (and other major tech companies!) are working towards that future!"

Is this indeed what is expected?

Thanks and sorry if this is a re hash!
 

Max*

Charging
Apr 8, 2015
6,672
3,719
NoVa
Autopilot is level 2. The next hardware upgrade will likely bring it to level 3. I say hardware, because the software is likely 3+ years out.
 

msnow

Active Member
Jul 14, 2015
4,951
2,236
SoCal
Wait, Elon also promised auto garage park and summon as the next iteration of our existing sensor suite. That would make it level 3 right? I believe he said it would be part of 7.1 did he not?
 

stevej119

Member
Aug 19, 2014
224
23
Northern California
I'm taking delivery of my P 90 D Thursday. Every option except cold climate, 3rd row seats and "L" (just couldn't see 10K for what you get).

I asked about the autopilot and was told this:

"Yes, your Model S will have the 7.0 software, with the full Autopilot convenience package active, including the Auto Lanekeeping and Auto Lane Change!"

I have not followed all the questions and concerns of owners about the autopilot issues and expected promises etc.

I pressed a little harder about what the car could and couldn't due, such as "drive itself" and got these answers:

"It is not a fully autonomous car yet, so you won’t be able to summon the car to pick you up. That is the vision, and part of the continuing development and refinement.

Keep in mind that when he said "That is the vision, and part of the continuing development refinement" he was talking as much about hardware as software. Our current cars will never be able to achieve level 4. That will require more cameras and sensors. What we have now is pretty awesome, though!
 

MarkS22

Member
Apr 6, 2015
796
1,985
Morris County, NJ
Wait, Elon also promised auto garage park and summon as the next iteration of our existing sensor suite. That would make it level 3 right? I believe he said it would be part of 7.1 did he not?

Well, there's 4 levels, but it's not all or nothing. For example, yes, "Auto Garage Park" could be "Level 3 Autonomous Garage Parking." But autonomous at 1mph doesn't make the car "Level 3" across the board. After all, at that speed it's quite easy to provide a "sufficiently comfortable transition time." For the next few years, we're going to see more Level 3 capabilities come online for specific situations until it inevitably becomes Level 4.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,622
6,394
Snohomish, WA
About right.

The current implementation of Autopilot gives Level II
The next generation of Autopilot will allow Level III, but then it starts becoming a regulatory issue. Would be really awesome if a Model S was the first production car to achieve Level III on public roads.

Elon musk has talked about being able to summons your car on private property, but I don't believe the current level of autopilot hardware really allows for that. In fact I don't believe there will be any function that allows the car to move from one position to another position without a driver at the wheel. The current level of hardware simply doesn't support it.
 
Last edited:

jlewisthe3rd

Member
Oct 15, 2015
73
62
Philadelphia, PA
Based on the description, the Current Auto-Pilot functionality actually falls in to Level 3 not Level 2. When activated "under certain conditions" those conditions being the ones Tesla states as highways with visible lane markings, you cede control of the vehicle and its safety functions (steering, accel, braking, collision alert/avoidance, etc.). The next level would be level 4 with a new hardware sensor suite.
 

Discoducky

P100DL, 2021 M3, 4 CT reservations and counting
Supporting Member
Dec 25, 2011
3,698
6,108
My mountain
Wait, Elon also promised auto garage park and summon as the next iteration of our existing sensor suite. That would make it level 3 right? I believe he said it would be part of 7.1 did he not?

Summons has been removed from the website: http://www.teslamotors.com/models

But is still mentioned in the blog: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/dual-motor-model-s-and-autopilot

The Autopilot hardware opens up some exciting long term possibilities. Imagine having your car check your calendar in the morning (a feature introduced in Software v6.0), calculate travel time to your first appointment based on real time traffic data, automatically open the garage door with Homelink, carefully back out of a tight garage, and pull up to your door ready for your commute.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,767
7,981
Maine
About right.

The current implementation of Autopilot gives Level II
The next generation of Autopilot will allow Level III, but then it starts becoming a regulatory issue. Would be really awesome if a Model S was the first production car to achieve Level III on public roads.

Elon musk has talked about being able to summons your car on private property, but I don't believe the current level of autopilot hardware really allows for that. In fact I don't believe there will be any function that allows the car to move from one position to another position without a driver at the wheel. The current level of hardware simply doesn't support it.

That's not true: the car has sensors that can see 1 car length. 1mph is 1.4 to 1.5 feet per second. There's no reason in principle why they couldn't have _slow_ summoning and self park on private property. The problem is plugging and unplugging your car, and that's what makes summons pointless at this point.
 
Last edited:

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,622
6,394
Snohomish, WA
Based on the description, the Current Auto-Pilot functionality actually falls in to Level 3 not Level 2. When activated "under certain conditions" those conditions being the ones Tesla states as highways with visible lane markings, you cede control of the vehicle and its safety functions (steering, accel, braking, collision alert/avoidance, etc.). The next level would be level 4 with a new hardware sensor suite.

EXCEPT for the fact that the manual tells you over, and over not to "cede total control", and to always be alert. That you're responsible for watching over the autopilot.

Level III is when the car itself is responsible for the driving, and is responsible for an accident if one occurs while it's in control. It doesn't require being watched over, and can operate on that part of the road autonomously. I'm not sure how they'll handle the "sufficiently comfortable transition time" part of it. The current autopilot SW definitely does not give sufficient time because this was not a design parameter.

Level II is a tough level because it can lead a person to trusting the system too much, and to stop paying attention. Especially if one had a really, really good level II car.

Level III is when things go from interesting to blah.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,622
6,394
Snohomish, WA
That's not true: the car has sensors that can see 1 car length. 1mph is 1.4 to 1.5 feet per second. There's no reason in principle why they couldn't have _slow_ summoning and self park on private property. The problem is plugging and unplugging your car, and that's what makes summons pointless at this point.

The car cannot tell the height of a curb or an obstruction
The cars side monitoring can easily miss things, and routinely misses things.
The car can't determine the distance between the car and an object in front/behind it less than 12 inches. At least that's as far down as the distance sensing goes till it says to stop.

All the sensing side/rear monitoring is reliant on ultrasonic sensors, and ultrasonic sensors have lots of limitations for sensing. Not to mention that they don't always work so great in the rain. They certainly don't work that great on the Tesla in the rain.

There is no way Tesla would ever risk the car hitting a kid, or an pet animal.

I say this hoping I'm wrong. I would love to get out of the car and have the car park itself while I was watching over it. Where I had a nice red STOP button that I could press in case it got too close to something. I'm jealous of all you that have SO's/Kids that can get out the car and guide you in. But, even if it was limited to this (with the manual saying you had to watch over it) there is no way to quickly stop the car from outside the car. The phone certainly can't be used for the STOP button because there is too much latency, and the connection isn't reliable enough. Maybe the remote will be used for that, and perhaps part of the reason for the remote redesign is this (pure speculation).

I should acknowledge that Elon Musk stated very recently that version 7.1 of the firmware would allow the car to park itself without a driver. At least with parallel parking. At leasts that's how I interpreted what he said. Despite this I still remain skeptical.
 

Max*

Charging
Apr 8, 2015
6,672
3,719
NoVa
Based on the description, the Current Auto-Pilot functionality actually falls in to Level 3 not Level 2. When activated "under certain conditions" those conditions being the ones Tesla states as highways with visible lane markings, you cede control of the vehicle and its safety functions (steering, accel, braking, collision alert/avoidance, etc.). The next level would be level 4 with a new hardware sensor suite.

Incorrect. The driver still maintains control in Level 2. AP is driver hands on wheel. Even if the driver takes his hands off the wheel, it's the drivers responsibility to make sure the car is performing as expected. Level 3 would allow you to take a nap. AP will NEVER allow you to take a nap in it's current hardware implementation.
 

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