Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[Tech_Guy]

Did you get a V3 for the replacement battery? Or something equivalent?

Yes V3 1088... battery replacement same as original equipment.

 

[MP3Mike]

I have been working with Tempe, AZ service center for over 2 months on a resolution to the Ludicrous fiasco Tesla has made. I thought we were close to a settlement, but just when I thought it would happen, Tesla insisted on a non-disclosure agreement.

What was Tesla going to give you? (You don't have an NDA right?)

 

[azdryheat]

What was Tesla going to give you? (You don't have an NDA right?)

No, at this point I have not signed anything. In the hopes that this is somehow resolved, I have decided not to release where we were in the settlement process.
Unfortunately, I have been in small claims court and civil court. In every case I have been happy with the results, but an insurance issue took 7 years in court. Sometimes it is better to say less.
I wanted to let owners know that everyone is not sitting down and accepting this. There are other people who are close to, or have started trying to get this resolved from Tesla. If I feel I can release any more information, I will. At this point we will wait and see what the AZ Atty General says. Used them before and the response was very fast.

 

[PaulKerry]

@Tech_Guy I understand that the car which woke up with a limit after ingesting a dodgy firmware curry was a P90D, right?

You use a CAN-BUS or some other form of data-retrieval device to monitor stats, right?


Would you tell me, please, at what kind of speeds would you likely to be drawing 90kW from your pack?

Paul..

 

[PaulKerry]

I would also like you to perform a 0-60 Without exceeding 90kW and tell me what kind of times you get compared with your previously unlimited times when you were pulling your 500kWish... (if I recall).

Also, could you describe your SuperCharger usage? Although as I'm never going to see the battery that fell off the bottom of your car after taking a Pee, such info would be more for interest than necessarily to deal with what I want to try to understand now.


Paul..

 

[Tech_Guy]

@Tech_Guy I understand that the car which woke up with a limit after ingesting a dodgy firmware curry was a P90D, right?

You use a CAN-BUS or some other form of data-retrieval device to monitor stats, right?


Would you tell me, please, at what kind of speeds would you likely to be drawing 90kW from your pack?

Paul..

I would also like you to perform a 0-60 Without exceeding 90kW and tell me what kind of times you get compared with your previously unlimited times when you were pulling your 500kWish... (if I recall).

Also, could you describe your SuperCharger usage? Although as I'm never going to see the battery that fell off the bottom of your car after taking a Pee, such info would be more for interest than necessarily to deal with what I want to try to understand now.


Paul..

I got the replace battery warning after the "Restore Performance Update"

Yes I monitor the CAN-BUS data.

Dont understand your question about 90kW what are you trying to determine? I tend to use a lot more then 90kW when accelerating

As far as supercharging goes I supercharge whenever useful, usually at least 2 times per week since June 2016

 

[PaulKerry]

I got the replace battery warning after the "Restore Performance Update"

Yup. You and at least one other... The 1000+ launches, sorely punished ambassador, Yeah?

Did ANYONE get their full power "restoration" without ending up with the "Take me for inspection" warning? I suspect not.

I suspect that they traded the silent limit for the "better bring it in and let us have a ganders at it, mate" warning.

That would have been a better policy in the first place, I would have thought, but never mind. I'm still trying to piece it together as much as the rest of us, I guess - I've only really read this thread - all of it.

Dont understand your question about 90kW what are you trying to determine? I tend to use a lot more then 90kW when accelerating

Surprised, I am not - hence trying to get a grip of how these figures relate to some real-world understandable data for me.

Let me try another way.

If you are cruising down your local "motorway" at the speed of the rest of the traffic, what would be the draw you would register? In a ball-park ? (and I don't mean stationary parked on home, wondering what it was doing in such a strange place with nothing it recognises).

... and at what kind of speed would you be wafting down that road? I am probably unfamiliar with your local speed limits.

I seem to remember you mentioning numbers in the 500kW range in this thread, right?

Right boot, on floor with go-pot squished between? ie, everything green, maximum GO !

[PEDANT] I know it might not actually be a potentiometer which plays the part of the go-pedal's sensor.[/PEDANT]



I've seen graphs floating about on these threads but I cannot remember at this stage who posted what or where. Or quite what they really meant at that level because people had explained in some simpler terms such as the kind of percentage whack you had taken in the oomph department.

You guys collect repositories of data which you share, and into which people can put their own stats, yes?

Please provide some useful resources to get a grasp of what model and submodel is doing under what kinds of conditions in terms of its battery/power/acceleratoin/distance/no of charges and all that usefulness.

Didn't you actually notice that loss of power in two stages? Do I remember correctly?

Did you get your Launch, WOT throttle events kind of thing and mixed use events counter values before you lost that second block of power?

There were three values, the "mixed" included the "non-launch/WOT events" one, is this your understanding ?

I wonder if the reason that the drag-strip guys are not getting so many triggers is because they are not running for long enough to hit those trigger points.

WK posted the values that he found from his Futurama-esque Franken-head in a jar Tesla computer(s) and I seem to remember that one of them was about WOT and another one relating, perhaps, to the duration in seconds over which that event occured.

I am trying to get a feel for how Tesla would LIKE their owners to drive in order to minimise the need for a battery inspection. In other words, triggering as few of those counter events as possible and certainly not many in quick succession.

One of the boffins will have worked out what best to log and how to equate it in terms of "battery damage" and decided on those levels.


I think there would have been a whole lot less upset if they decided not to limit silently, but to encourage least potentially harmful use.

For example, to put up those counters in an app/instrument on the dash and tell people that they would extend their battery warrantee for further duration if they remained below a certain level as long as it had an inspection before they renewed the warantee. Thus, packs can improve their MTBF and help the poor Tesla peeps by virtue of people knowing that too many points will impact their warantee renewal decision.

I have a feeling that what we are going to discover is that things are going to get worse and further limits will be applied.

I hope that next time Tesla find some limits that they have to impose, rather than takaing stuff away for all, they encourage sensible use by most.

They will still be very capable machines and the technological marvels that they are, of course.

I would also like to know if anyone got their battery returned after the check or did everyone so far get reconditioned packs?

Just as a thought experiment for the moment, I guess.

As far as supercharging goes I supercharge whenever useful, usually at least 2 times per week since June 2016

What kind of rate in terms of kW do you see at the pipe when sucking up the super-juice? On average, reasonable conditions?

I want to travel all electric but, the only BeV which will do the job for me right now is a Tesla because I need to tow a trailer.

The only other thing which might come close is a PHEV but it won't quite allow for my commute on a full charge in EV-only mode...

Our new car has to last me a long time and, unfortunately, is going to take a little bit of abuse in bad weather. Not the hard-footed kind, just things like hauling loads up snowy mountain roads...

Paul..

 

[PaulKerry]

A couple of thoughts for those who don't like to read my long posts...

How many folk would consider themselves "made whole" if Tesla returned things to pre-8.0 but with the warning instead and the promise of extended warantee after their 8 years is up if your Counters were below certain limits? On the understanding that they were clear about how to trigger the counters and display them in the dash...

I wonder if resale values of Teslas would be higher if their firmware was frozen preCounterG8.0 ?

Paul..

 

[davidc18]

Mine is still on 7.1 which I hope will help with the resale in a few years. Sooner if the next update to the P100 includes a worthy suspension for the car.

 

[benjiejr]

they still have not finished rebuilding my original pack for installing, no eta on that.

Thanks @jerjozwik. Were you told that's what would happen? I was specifically told that my remanufactured pack would become my permanent pack; I would not be getting my original pack back.

 

[jerjozwik]

@benjiejr there was a line in my repair order stating it was a loaner pack and i would be getting mine back at some point.

 

[Tech_Guy]

@benjiejr there was a line in my repair order stating it was a loaner pack and i would be getting mine back at some point.

And I was originally told the same, my pack would be repaired and eventually reinstalled in my car. When I went in for my service appointment, I was told I would be getting a new pack and would not have to come back for my original pack... I suspect that Tesla wanted my pack for closer inspection since I toppped the v3 leaderboards.

 

[jerjozwik]

with a close 2nd for v2!

 

[TIppy]

If you are cruising down your local "motorway" at the speed of the rest of the traffic, what would be the draw you would register? In a ball-park ? (and I don't mean stationary parked on home, wondering what it was doing in such a strange place with nothing it recognises).

Ideal range is for 55 mph on flat terrain, no wind or ac. For a s90d the ideal range and available battery capacity gives 240 wh/mile. If you multiply that by 55 mph (89 kph) that gives 13 kw of power to keep the car going. Required power increases with the speed cubed, so at 70 mph (113 kph) you would use about 27 kw. And max speed, 155 mph (249 kph), requires 291 kw.

90 kw seems to hold a special fascination for you, so 105 mph (169 kph) would require 90 kw.

 

[PaulKerry]

Thanks, @TIppy. That's really helpful. I appreciate it.

Paul..

 

[MikeBur]

@PaulKerry re how much energy for motorway/freeway graphs, try these that we did a year ago: Chassis CAN Logging To ASCII Text Plus Graphing. Covers 65, 70, 80, 90 (24 to 44kW) with range mode on, though the earlier graphs we did with range mode off didn't show much of a difference at steady speed/flat surface.
Full kudos to team effort from Bill (@lolachampcar), Jason (@wk057j, @Bill D, @brianman, et al gathering data and putting the findings together. There's data from other cars in that thread from all.

I'm sorry Paul, I honestly couldn't parse your longer email completely ;-), though the one thing we've been pushing for a long time is information transparency. Most have seemingly given up exposing data, as data seemingly does not trump religion... I strongly believe there's absolutely no reason why Tesla are being borderline nefarious with imposing unknown limitations, based on unknown criteria, done implicitly and after the fact; thereby converting some of their evangelists into vocal skeptics.

Cheers, Mike

 

[TIppy]

Thanks, @TIppy. That's really helpful. I appreciate it.

Paul..

You are welcome.

Using an online 0 to 60 calculator, so really ballpark, 0 to 60 at 90 kw would be about 10.6 seconds.

 

[PaulKerry]

@Tesla_Guy and @TIppy, thanks those are the kind of ball-park figures I'd been thinking... So, drive it like a granny and it will likely outlast Granny.

I think it is also possible to kick the snot out of it under certain circumstances but not too often and not for too long....

Enthusiastic driving long distance on an Autobahn, hopping between Supercharging stations - not an ideal use-case.

Oddly, drag-strip racing does appear to be quite a friendly use-case and I think some of the "not for too long" part of the equation comes in to play there.

As for transparency, wasn't there an argument in this thread about Tesla being almost immacualtely transparent?

I don't think that this was handled transparently, really.

I did mention that if Tesla provided the means to show "red-line" data in the car and extended warantees on pampered batteries, people would care for their cars because that information would be visible at resale and would improve the value of the car. It would also reduce the warantee headache for the company.

If they'd offered that from the moment that they saw problems instead of trying to throttle the usage-curve, I think they'd have far happier and co-operative customers.


If anyone is in discussions with their legal team - try suggesting that they put that to Tesla - return to the unlimited system which was purchased and give the owner the means and encouragement to avoid warantee replacements.

Paul..

 

[St Charles]

This is a bit off topic but...

If anyone is interested in gathering performance metrics, there is a private rental at Thompson Raceway in Ohio next Friday. I'll be there with my P90D.

Thompson Raceway Park | Ohio's Thunder Capital

The rental is through an online Mustang club but anyone who wants to join in is more than welcome to attend. The cost is $125 which includes food after the event and a small awards ceremony. Details can be found here:

The 11th Annual Buckeye Brawl 19 MAY 2017 - The Mustang Collective Forums

The Hampton inn nearby has L2 chargers and there is at least one NEMA 14-50R at the track.

 

[PaulKerry]

Doh... When I wrote, "Tesla_Guy", I meant @Tech_Guy :facepalm: .

Paul..