Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[n2mb_racing]

yup, I'll be dumping the whole PT CAN so I'll have motor torque (front and rear), motor amps (front and rear), BMS info (total amps and volts), speed, etc.

I just need a safe place to do that. Close to home I have a highway but I can't legally stop by the side to do a 0-100kph run. Everywhere around is max 50kph. I can push it to 65-68 but over that and I'll get pulled over and I can tell you everyone around my house knows exactly who owns the "white Tesla"

Can you post how you log those parameters? I'd like to log my P90DL. I have a BT CAN interface and android phone with TM-spy.

 

[llavalle]

Can you post how you log those parameters? I'd like to log my P90DL. I have a BT CAN interface and android phone with TM-spy.

From past experience, a ELM device (BT CAN interface) isn't fast enough to capture messages which are too "noisy". Also, you can only select 1 (perhaps 1-2 or 3) message to capture, you can't dump it all. I use a CANTact connected though USB on a laptop. Works great.

 

[TIppy]

I can attest that a Bluetooth elm device will not have the necessary bandwidth. I use this device:
Amazon.com: ViewTool Ginkgo USB To CAN Interface Adapter Support Windows/Linux/MAC/Android/Raspberry Pi USB-CAN Analyzer 2500VRMS isolation CANopen SAE J1939 DeviceNET: Computers & Accessories
You'll also need a cable, but if you have the elm device, you already have that.

It has two channels so can listen to two buses simultaneously. Another benefit is that it is isolated, so is less likely to damage your car or your laptop. The data is also time tagged to 1/10 of a millisecond. This will only get the canbus data into a file for you. You will need other software to actually decode what the can id's mean. This is a good source of information for what the data means(thanks,wk057):
http://skie.net/uploads/TeslaCAN/Tesla Model S CAN Deciphering - v0.1 - by wk057.pdf

You could certainly use this to manually decode the canbus data, but it would be extremely tedious. But if you can code ...
They provide sample code to talk directly to the device to both send and receive data.

This of course is not as convenient as TM-Spy but is much more powerful.

 

[llavalle]

[...]
You could certainly use this to manually decode the canbus data, but it would be extremely tedious. But if you can code ...
They provide sample code to talk directly to the device to both send and receive data.

This of course is not as convenient as TM-Spy but is much more powerful.

Alright - I already have some code to parse the data. Here are the results :

SOC was 83% when I started the drive and 77% when it ended. These are the peak of the amp reading on the CAN from the battery.
Dual motor : [email protected] = 352.17kW <-- A few occurrences over 1150 but mostly 1150.
Rear motor only : [email protected] = 222.4kW <-- same here, this is the peak value, was hovering around 650amp
Front motor only : [email protected] = 218.4kW <-- same, was hovering around 640amps

I have my dashcam footage + gopro filming the CID + can dump. I'll need to come up with a way to present that.

Here are some screen caps of the GoPro (remember, dash is in km/h, not mph!)
Peak amps on the rear DU alone :

Peak mech power on rear DU alone

Peak amps in dual motor mode :

Peak amps in front DU alone :

Peak mech power in front DU alone :

 

[TIppy]

Alright - I already have some code to parse the data. Here are the results :

I assumed you did. My post was for n2mb_racing who is using TM-Spy.

The factory mode display indicates that the mechanical power for both the front and rear motors is 189 kw. That's close to the 193 kw the service manual gives for the performance small motors. I'd be interested in what the canbus values for torque and rpm were at max power. Comparing those to the battery power will give the efficiency of the motor/inverter. From what you've posted so far, it looks like about 85 percent. That's higher than what I usually see, 81 percent.

The stator current by itself doesn't tell us much. You would need to know the inverter voltage at that time to calculate the electrical power the inverter was generating. As you accelerate from zero kph, the stator current will be high, but the voltage will be low. The battery current will also be low at that time.

 

[TIppy]

I just compared the difference between the mechanical power reported in can ids 0x266 and 0x2e5 vs the power computed from torque and rpm for my car.
mechPower 600 hp
torque X rpm 555 hp

555hp is the more realistic number.

 

[n2mb_racing]

I just compared the difference between the mechanical power reported in can ids 0x266 and 0x2e5 vs the power computed from torque and rpm for my car.
mechPower 600 hp
torque X rpm 555 hp

555hp is the more realistic number.

How does that compare to peak kW from the battery?

 

[TIppy]

How does that compare to peak kW from the battery?

503 kw peak battery power.

 

[TIppy]

@llavalle provided some data from his canbus for a Model S 85D. He did several zero to sixty runs with rear motor only, both motors and front motor only. Here's what I found.

Information for max power during zero to sixty mph. Unloaded battery voltage was about 381 volts for all three runs. The data was smoothed by averaging over +/- 0.05 secs.

Measured Power, Battery power, Battery Voltage, Battery Amps, Torque, RPM, Speed:

F 000.0, 000.0, 000.0, 000.0, 000.0, 5472, 76.8
R 181.2, 220.7, 334.9, 659.1, 316.9, 5572

F 139.7, 348.3, 302.9, 1150.0, 311.7, 4366, 59.7
R 131.6, 348.3, 302.9, 1150.0, 295.5, 4339
T 271.3

F 176.1, 216.3, 336.1, 643.6, 312.0, 5499, 77.7
R 000.0, 000.0, 000.0, 000.0, 000.0, 5393

Zero to sixty( without, with 1 foot roll out)
Rear:
8.07, 7.68
Both:
5.04, 4.44
Front(run started at about 5 kph):
8.25, 8.06

The max power of the motors is around 180 KW, so these are performance small motors, but they are not being driven to their full power. It's interesting that the combined current is 1303 amps. That seems to match the fuse in his pack(insane mode power).

They obviously made the base power small motors for some reason. I guess they might have been for the lower voltage packs.

This data shows that the front and rear motors have the same final drive ratio, as can be seen from the similar rpms when both motors are driven.

 

[azdryheat]

No. I'm using the value angle that Tesla thinks it's free to decrease performance after the sale. And if this vehicle destroys the battery overtime due to an unaddressed design flaw, they owe us a new design. It's their problem, not ours. They want us to pay for their design flaw.

I don't see how the current method fixes anything. The guys who were likely to drive the car hard before are still going to with LM. After warranty, people will still be hit with big repair bills from those heavily used cars lowering the resale value. They should just fix the design flaw.

The original method was just to lower the power after a certain count, and since you don't care about power you should have been fine with that.

I have been pretty unhappy with the whole counter/power reduction thing. The way it has been handled is terrible IMO.

Hope to have some better news in the next two weeks for everyone who has had a power loss. Nothing more I can say at this point except to give this another couple weeks. And I am the last guy who should tell people to be patient.

I might be back to being a huge Tesla fan.

 

[Jeffgtx]

Will be interested to hear.

 

[P85DEE]

.....



P85DEE, did you hijack St Charles account?

Nope. And don't bring me into this.

 

[Brando]

Browsing this thread and you'd think a small miracle Tesla still in business.
- Do ICE cars ever get this level of scrutiny? Such as HP/torque ratings? and fuel tank capacity/range?
(altitude, humidity, gas octane ratings, ethanol content, temperature affect performance, right?)
- Is any other EV maker getting similar complaints? If not, tell us so we can all go buy those EVs.
- If these "issues" are normal for EV maker to deal with, any wonder most won't try, and GM crushes EV1s?

So far this "niche player" manages to sell 1 in 4 luxury sedans (~$100,000 price point). During its 4th year of Model S production.
Won't think that possible considering these complaints, would you?

Those who really have these concerns will look for better deals/treatment and Elon himself would encourage them to vote with their dollars. Elon has said something like; If a company can't provide a competitive product, they should just go out of business.

 

[Brando]

PS - Do super sports cars ever get this level of scrutiny? Lambo, Ferrari, etc.

 

[FlatSix911]

It is very common to debate the minutiae in high end exotics and supercars... it would make your head hurt

Welcome to the dark side:
Rennlist - The Porsche Enthusiast Site
FerrariChat.com - The Online Ferrari Forum and Community

PS - Do super sports cars ever get this level of scrutiny? Lambo, Ferrari, etc.

Browsing this thread and you'd think a small miracle Tesla still in business.
- Do ICE cars ever get this level of scrutiny? Such as HP/torque ratings? and fuel tank capacity/range?
(altitude, humidity, gas octane ratings, ethanol content, temperature affect performance, right?)
- Is any other EV maker getting similar complaints? If not, tell us so we can all go buy those EVs.
- If these "issues" are normal for EV maker to deal with, any wonder most won't try, and GM crushes EV1s?
So far this "niche player" manages to sell 1 in 4 luxury sedans (~$100,000 price point). During its 4th year of Model S production. Won't think that possible considering these complaints, would you? Those who really have these concerns will look for better deals/treatment and Elon himself would encourage them to vote with their dollars. Elon has said something like; If a company can't provide a competitive product, they should just go out of business.

 

[Spidy]

Those who really have these concerns will look for better deals/treatment and Elon himself would encourage them to vote with their dollars. Elon has said something like; If a company can't provide a competitive product, they should just go out of business.

I think for many would just mean to get a 100D instead of a P100D. Because that's really what it is about. Justifying the increase price of the performance cars.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

- Do ICE cars ever get this level of scrutiny? Such as HP/torque ratings? and fuel tank capacity/range?

Yes.

PS - Do super sports cars ever get this level of scrutiny? Lambo, Ferrari, etc.

Yes.

Also, diesel emissions get scrutiny and can't be fixed by making performance less (U.S. precedent).

 

[robz]

For additional data my p100d model x put out 566kW max on several runs from 40-100mph with the pack @ 98% and ludi plus enabled and completely warmed up.

Should it have been 575kW?

The car did run 40-100mph in 4.71 seconds

I will try again from a stop this week with:
Ludi plus
Ludi plus and Launch control
...and see what each produces.

 

[JonMc]

Hi Everyone -

I’d like to provide a quick update on this topic. Some of you with a P90D and Ludicrous acceleration mentioned that you did not want to use Launch Mode to simultaneously activate maximum battery performance. We’ve listened and are happy to tell you that for those that wish to do so, you can again enable maximum battery performance independently from Launch Mode, ensuring that you have maximum flexibility in how you use your car.

Jon

 

[VikH]

Hi Everyone -

I’d like to provide a quick update on this topic. Some of you with a P90D and Ludicrous acceleration mentioned that you did not want to use Launch Mode to simultaneously activate maximum battery performance. We’ve listened and are happy to tell you that for those that wish to do so, you can again enable maximum battery performance independently from Launch Mode, ensuring that you have maximum flexibility in how you use your car.

Jon

Thank you!