Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
This is what I have read from a new 85D and 90D via canbus and also confirmed in the Diagnostic menu.
I have only seen 79 on one 85. Most of 85 Dual motor are 77-78 kWh + 4 kwh brick. (I and a friend have data from 15-20 different Model S)
The older 85 rwd have a few kWh less.

So best case.
85 is 79 kWh usable + 4 brick = 83 kWh
90 is 85 kWh usable + 4 brick = 89 kWh.

85D
85.png


90D
90.png
 
Last edited:
Thanks Ingineer, great informative posts.
Since we're talking about battery capacities and launch limitations, could you also comment about launch limitation in 60/70/75 cars?
I drove a S75 and noticed that how slow was 0-60. Especially 0-30. 0-30 felt much slower than my old Bmw 630. It was like the car didn't want to move first 1-2 seconds.
Then I've tried 10-60, which really felt fast, even comparing to my P90DL, it was good. It is obvious that Tesla is limiting the power of S75 if you are doing "launch" from 0. Rolling start from 10mph is definitely much faster.

Have you got any data on that? Since lots of people have 60/75s, that maybe more interesting than P90D limitation for some people.

(Btw, in my opinion one reason that P90D is much more expensive than 90D is to cover the extra risk of drive train failure. If they are limiting launches, this is bad.)
Thanks Ingineer, great informative posts.
Since we're talking about battery capacities and launch limitations, could you also comment about launch limitation in 60/70/75 cars?
I drove a S75 and noticed that how slow was 0-60. Especially 0-30. 0-30 felt much slower than my old Bmw 630. It was like the car didn't want to move first 1-2 seconds.
Then I've tried 10-60, which really felt fast, even comparing to my P90DL, it was good. It is obvious that Tesla is limiting the power of S75 if you are doing "launch" from 0. Rolling start from 10mph is definitely much faster.

Have you got any data on that? Since lots of people have 60/75s, that maybe more interesting than P90D limitation for some people.

(Btw, in my opinion one reason that P90D is much more expensive than 90D is to cover the extra risk of drive train failure. If they are limiting launches, this is bad.)

I've experienced this 0-10 vs 20-60 difference and am very interested in this question.

Just to clarify there's no way to know the count or what contitutes as launch on non-P models?
 
I've experienced this 0-10 vs 20-60 difference and am very interested in this question.

Just to clarify there's no way to know the count or what constitutes as launch on non-P models?

I don't know, from my limited time spent in a S75, acceleration graph felt so artificial while doing 0-60. I'm guessing that if speed is <10, It limits the power when you floor it. Maybe this is to prevent that nice launch effect on 0-20, and create another reason to pay more for 90D or PXD.
Maybe @Ingineer could answer :)
 
If Tesla was up-front about all this and said something like "You can only do 100 full-power launches before we will turn down the power", then they could just have a counter, much the way an odometer shows mileage. It would be shown on the screen so you know exactly where you were at and used cars would be easy to check.

Engineering-wise, I don't see an issue with pushing the hardware hard, but with a limit on the number. When you need to engineer the system to last a certain amount of time/cycles, it's much easier to do so when you know exactly the numbers of cycles to target. This way they can allow the hardware to really be pushed to the max and give us the most bang for our buck and still know the reliability targets will be met. The alternative is to just dial back the performance so you have a big safety factor. Having the digital control of things means it's easy to have advanced control of the parameters your system is exposed to.

In fact, in the future we may have a much better metric than "miles" to determine a cars age and history. Tesla already gives us lifetime miles/kWh which gives a used car buyer an idea of whether the car was driven hard or gently. Other cars don't give us that. I can imagine a stats page showing all kinds of metrics such as lifetime cornering force, tire stress, road roughness, etc. The Model S/X already has all the instrumentation to log these kind of things.

Tesla, this launch limit is ok, just let us know about it!
Wonder how long before State Farm (or any insurance company) gets to tap into it directly. They are pushing the dongles pretty hard at the moment.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: SeminoleFSU
I knew this thread would get some attention the first day I read it when it was published. Commented on page 1 Monday 12/12, came back yesterday and it had 14 pages!! And an Electrik article with all it's information from this thread! Geez! And all this time I had not realized WK057 was Jason Hughes, he of Tesla tinkering fame :)
Sorry, nothing to add, I think it has already beaten the dead horse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: davidc18
2.4 second easter-egg for the P100DL may require you to agree that using it will void your driveline warranty.
Then why give the ability at all? "If you use this vehicle for launches, it may void warranty". Makes no sense.
Tesla already gives us lifetime miles/kWh which gives a used car buyer an idea of whether the car was driven hard or gently.

I would love something like this, who wouldn't? No need for Carfax. But, would Tesla charge for this info?
I think we are still in the "launch" infancy and drivetrain stress may not be clear for a couple years. Hopefully it holds up but I can see a drive unit replacement recall in the future :(
 
  • Like
Reactions: SeminoleFSU
Then why give the ability at all? "If you use this vehicle for launches, it may void warranty". Makes no sense.

Because some people want it, are willing to pay for it, and take the risk. I believe many of the engine mods to the high end Porsches, BMW, etc will void the factory warranty. Some of them, Dinan for example, will provide their own warranty.

I'm fine with a modification (or easter egg) voiding the warranty as long as it's known. I don't like the idea of a non-published, non-resettable counter limiting something I purchase. Certainly has an impact on consideration or purchasing used.
 
If it would come with 92kWh battery limited to 90, yes sure.

To clarify, I was only talking hardware. Range is subject to many more variables (read the question wrong first).
All models should come like the MS60, with slightly more battery than advertised, especially considering the degradation that inevitably comes for everyone.
 
Then why give the ability at all? "If you use this vehicle for launches, it may void warranty". Makes no sense.


I would love something like this, who wouldn't? No need for Carfax. But, would Tesla charge for this info?
I think we are still in the "launch" infancy and drivetrain stress may not be clear for a couple years. Hopefully it holds up but I can see a drive unit replacement recall in the future :(
Nissan was sued because the early GT-R's were denied warranty claims if the owner used Launch Mode too much. With the later models I think you can only use it a few times then it locks you out (temp), but you get to keep the warranty.
 
This is what I have read from a new 85D and 90D via canbus and also confirmed in the Diagnostic menu.
I have only seen 79 on one 85. Most of 85 Dual motor are 77-78 kWh + 4 kwh brick. (I and a friend have data from 15-20 different Model S)
The older 85 rwd have a few kWh less.

So best case.
85 is 79 kWh usable + 4 brick = 83 kWh
90 is 85 kWh usable + 4 brick = 89 kWh.

85D
View attachment 206086

90D
View attachment 206087

Yeah, I remembered you had posted this in another thread. Any idea how those outliers are performing now with more miles on the odo? I'd love to know if they are still reporting close to their rated capacities.
 
They are also taking away output current after too many launches on some packs. So if you do too many launches, you may suddenly find your car's performance reduced, with no indication from the car or Tesla, and no advance notice that this could happen.

It is a literal counter. It's not related to thermals.

I have solid evidence that the amp limit in some packs drops suddenly after a certain number of launch mode usages.

I added the bold in the above quotes.

I know we have been asking a lot of you, Ingineer, but I am wondering, since you've talked about the launch limit a couple of different ways, if it is your belief that only use of actual "Launch Mode" increments the counter, or if simply launching from a stop, without launch mode enabled, would also increment the counter.

The last quote above makes it sound like it is only "Launch Mode" launches we need to worry about, but I fully recognize that I may be reading more into your wording than you intended.

If, in fact, Tesla is only looking at the use of launch mode, and assuming they don't change that, the simple work-around is to launch without using launch mode. Of course the wear and tear on the drive unit, contactor, fuses, etc. would be the same--we just wouldn't be getting dinged for it.

Again, thanks for sharing what you already have, and for whatever additional information you may be able to share in the future.
 
If, in fact, Tesla is only looking at the use of launch mode, and assuming they don't change that, the simple work-around is to launch without using launch mode. Of course the wear and tear on the drive unit, contactor, fuses, etc. would be the same--we just wouldn't be getting dinged for it.
Which would be great because If I remember correctly, fiks concluded using launch control for performance reasons was essentially unnecessary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andyw2100
Same here. Until I read this thread I was considering purchasing the upgrade. Knowing what I do now, I don't feel like it's worth the $9k for me. Though, I would gladly pay something like $3k to have the car use the unused battery capacity to offset degredation of my S60. I really think that should be an option because if I'm unwilling to purchase the full 75kwh upgrade now then I'm sure as hell going to be unwilling to purchase the full upgrade after I know the pack has degraded a bit.
Then you shouldn't buy the upgrade. For me, I was considering a 70 when the 60 came out. I'm just back to roughly what I was already intending to spend. Tesla may have been all over the map with claims, but the epa figures have remained constant. They are the best way to evaluate range. Tesla has shown with the 40 that they aren't going to back off an upgrade price, so just stay where you are. My reasons for upgrading wouldn't make economic sense to you as they have to do with personal life decisions.
 
The last quote above makes it sound like it is only "Launch Mode" launches we need to worry about, but I fully recognize that I may be reading more into your wording than you intended.

If, in fact, Tesla is only looking at the use of launch mode, and assuming they don't change that, the simple work-around is to launch without using launch mode. Of course the wear and tear on the drive unit, contactor, fuses, etc. would be the same--we just wouldn't be getting dinged for it.

This would be pretty dumb if true, as the only thing that launch mode does it take out the powertrain lash, which means less stress.
 
To summarize, here is the range of usable/nominal battery + brick buffer = total battery seen on this forum as of late. Any others?

wk057 said:
And here is what I've gathered so far:
Original 60 - ~61 kWh total capacity, ~58.5 kWh usable.
85/P85/85D/P85D - ~81.5 kWh total capacity, ~77.5 kWh usable
90D/P90D - ~85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable
Original 70 - ~71.2 kWh total capacity, 68.8 kWh usable
75/75D - 75 kWh total capacity, 72.6 kWh usable
Software limited 60/60D - 62.4 kWh usable
Software limited 70/70D - 65.9 kWh usable
Edit: For clarification, the larger packs use a 4 kWh bottom lockout and the smaller packs use a 2.4 kWh bottom lockout. This capacity (included in the "total capacity" numbers above) is NOT usable for driving or other purposes."

Dennis87 said:
I have only seen 79 on one 85. Most of 85 Dual motor are 77-78 kWh + 4 kwh brick. (I and a friend have data from 15-20 different Model S)
The older 85 rwd have a few kWh less.

So best case.
85 is 79 kWh usable + 4 brick = 83 kWh
90 is 85 kWh usable + 4 brick = 89 kWh.

Oyvind.h said:
84,9 + brick pack is my own car... Model S90D March 2016

So certainly newer high-end batteries seem to, inconsistently at least, reach higher towards what has been promised in the specs (e.g. 83 kWh total on an 85 kWh, instead of 81 kWh total on 85 kWh)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: SeminoleFSU