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Pack Swap on 70D to 90kWh HP?

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Except monetary damage, right? They charged, what $10k (?), to upgrade from the S85 to a P85.

On one hand it's your car, you should be able to do whatever you want with it; on the other hand, it doesn't feel ethical...

Well yes and no. I thought about that yesterday. Let's change perspective a bit. Let's say I bought a car and wanted to add an option it didn't come with. People with BMWs do this regularly. What would I do? I'd either buy the part new or source it used. In the case of BMW I'd also find a coder to program my car and tell it that it has the missing option. BMW doesn't get paid for the option but my car ends up having it anyhow. Would there be anything wrong with any of this? No. It's not unethical to buy parts and modify your own car. I think we'd all agree on this.

So now let's take that one step further. Here's a real scenario. Let's say I bought a 2013 BMW 535 but I didn't get the advanced bluetooth package so I don't get A2DP sound over bluetooth. Well I'm going to go out and buy the advanced bluetooth module. But wait, there is no module. It's the same one as the one that's in my car. When I pay for the option BMW simply tells the car I have advanced bluetooth and boom, the option is active. So while I'm completely willing to go out and buy the parts necessary, it's not required. In this case I simply flip a digital switch and my car has an option it didn't have before. Now is this wrong? Again, no, I don't believe it is. I'm modifying my car.

I view potentially turning an S85 into a P85 as the same thing. It's always been in the back of my mind that in the future way down the road the option to swap inverters and reprogram the car is going to be there. In my scenario I'd buy the inverter, have it swapped and then have the car programmed. Again though, all hypothetical and all years down the road. More importantly, is it my fault that performing those modifications potentially wouldn't require a parts swap? No.

Warranty issues aside, if you bought an inverter, installed it and reprogramed your car to turn it into a P85 everyone here would be talking about how cool that was but the moment people find out you do exactly the same thing only it's not necessary to swap the inverter, suddenly you're some sort of villain? I guess my bottom line is this: the ease of which a particular car can be modified is not something that can be held against the owner and the owner shouldn't be faulted for wanting to take advantage of those exploits. They also shouldn't feel entitled to them though.

I see your point. I just happen to think a very strong case can be made for doing what you want with your own car. And on the flip side of that coin, if Tesla were to come out and block access to all of this I wouldn't feel slighted at all. In fact, I kind of think they should.

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Upgrading your car from an S85 to a P85 is one thing, that I would consider questionable. Upgrading it and then still expecting Tesla to warranty it or support it any way as Mike K suggested is hugely unethical.

Unethical is a pretty strong word. I think there's room for debate and I think you need to consider a few different variables. Here's one:

Is there a higher rate of component failure between 85 and P85 cars?
If there is then I see your point. Maybe the price difference between the models covers the additional failure rate of the higher powered car. If there isn't a higher rate of failure on the P85s then I'm not so sure I agree with you. Tesla would be offering the same warranty on the same drive unit and the same battery. In theory this would not affect them at all.

And just to clarify, I'm basing my assumption off the fact that the components between the cars are indeed identical as has been suggested. If an S85 inverter can be made to pass power like a P85 inverter but at the cost of longevity then I'm right back in your boat with it not being ok.
 
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Who was the owner when this was done though? Wouldn't it have been done when it was owned by the insurance company? Whatever "paperwork" is given to Tesla to tell them that the title is being changed may include the agreement that some features such as connectivity and supercharging are removed.

The owner when it was done, according to the logs in the car, was the current owner and not the insurance company. The car wasn't online long enough for Tesla to get their grubby paws into the system before the current owner was repairing it. If the insurance company wants to let Tesla do whatever, then they're welcome to. But the owner who had a car delivered to him with the option enabled has the option removed after the fact, without permission given.

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Excerpt from the service manual on DU replacement:



Now, why, if the physical hardware is identical, would this procedure exist, and why would different sounds emanate from the DU? Even if you got the firmware to work, you are probably going to cause DU failure. Temperatures are not a good enough indicator.

As it is, we know the 1st gen DU's are "fragile". Making one put out more power is just asking for it.

BTW, I recently did a pack swap of a 90 into a P85D and now it's a P90D. That is totally fine and doesn't stress anything out beyond it's original design.

Yep, I've seen this as well. Seems pretty likely that this is just from the increased stress on the components causing a noise while the gears and differential wear to a point where the sound is inaudible, which is likely just not an issue when running at lower power and would "break in" on its own over time without audible noise. This is certainly just a customer satisfaction procedure so that people with P cars don't freak out the first time they accelerate when they hear this noise.
 
Where did you get a ludicrous upgraded 90 kWh pack from? Has someone totaled a P90D already?

Ingineer can probably confirm, but the consensus has been that all of the 90 packs contain the upgraded fuse and contactors required for Ludicrous mode.

@Ingineer - Did you replace the front drive unit fuse (under the rear seat if memory serves) as well? That appears to be part of the upgrade procedure for Insane->Ludicrous. AFAIK they just remove it and replace it with a bus bar now and it doesn't exist at all on newer cars with the electronic pack fuse.
 
Ingineer can probably confirm, but the consensus has been that all of the 90 packs contain the upgraded fuse and contactors required for Ludicrous mode.

So that would mean the only difference between a P90D and a P90D is $10,000 to change a software option? I guess that fits with the only difference between an 85 and a P85 is a $20,000 software option.

Meaning that the difference between a 90D and a P90D is the rear motor/invertor and a software change for $30,000k. I wonder what the difference in cost between the small and large motors are...
 
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So that would mean the only difference between a P90D and a P90D is $10,000 to change a software option? I guess that fits with the only difference between an 85 and a P85 is a $20,000 software option.

Meaning that the difference between a 90D and a P90D is just a $30,000 software change. Wow...

Well, the 90D and P90D have different rear motors at least. Beyond that, yeah, it's pretty ludicrous. :cool:
 
image.jpeg
Well, the 90D and P90D have different rear motors at least. Beyond that, yeah, it's pretty ludicrous. :cool:
Kind of back to the original question, if a 70D is software limited (and according to Tesla's website also battery performance limited) would an 70D that was only software changed to allow the performance of a 90D be able to maintain the performance of a 90D (1 second faster 0-60) with a smaller battery pack? Or is there not sufficient power from the smaller pack to allow the better performance.

I included the screen shot from the tesla website because it confirms the motors are the same between the 70D and 90D
 
View attachment 113517Kind of back to the original question, if a 70D is software limited (and according to Tesla's website also battery performance limited) would an 70D that was only software changed to allow the performance of a 90D be able to maintain the performance of a 90D (1 second faster 0-60) with a smaller battery pack? Or is there not sufficient power from the smaller pack to allow the better performance.

I included the screen shot from the tesla website because it confirms the motors are the same between the 70D and 90D

With software limits removed the 70 pack would provide about 14% less power than the 90D.
 
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Ingineer can probably confirm, but the consensus has been that all of the 90 packs contain the upgraded fuse and contactors required for Ludicrous mode.

@Ingineer - Did you replace the front drive unit fuse (under the rear seat if memory serves) as well? That appears to be part of the upgrade procedure for Insane->Ludicrous. AFAIK they just remove it and replace it with a bus bar now and it doesn't exist at all on newer cars with the electronic pack fuse.

I don't know if all 90 packs have the upgraded fuse, but all the newer ones do I've looked at. You can tell because as you pointed out they have removed the auxiliary fuse box for the front motor (and rear motor on non-P cars). This is because the new electronic fuse can respond fast enough to protect the small inverters, whereas before, they needed 3 total fuses on cars with small inverters. When I installed the 90 pack I also installed the front power cables from the same car which didn't have the fuse.
 
I believe I read that the MS 60 battery voltage was 350V. I checked the battery pack for our MS70D and see that it is a "D" series but I am unable to read what the voltage is because the label is partially covered by the fender liner. For the MS90s, the battery series is also "D" but the voltage is 400. Does any one know what the voltage is for the MS70D? Thank you
 
Well yes and no. I thought about that yesterday. Let's change perspective a bit. Let's say I bought a car and wanted to add an option it didn't come with. People with BMWs do this regularly. What would I do? I'd either buy the part new or source it used. In the case of BMW I'd also find a coder to program my car and tell it that it has the missing option. BMW doesn't get paid for the option but my car ends up having it anyhow. Would there be anything wrong with any of this? No. It's not unethical to buy parts and modify your own car. I think we'd all agree on this.

So that is a really interesting thought. Converting a 90D to a P90DL would be a matter of new/salvage drive unit (less than 5k for sure) and maybe some new higher current cabling. And then you need someone to hack the software. So, assuming you're willing to live with static firmware and forgo future updates, then it should be a pretty inexpensive 3rd party upgrade.

I wonder what the laws are on that? I know that (expensive) software switch enabled options are common on industrial machinery. And I know that people hack those every day.
 
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I believe I read that the MS 60 battery voltage was 350V. I checked the battery pack for our MS70D and see that it is a "D" series but I am unable to read what the voltage is because the label is partially covered by the fender liner. For the MS90s, the battery series is also "D" but the voltage is 400. Does any one know what the voltage is for the MS70D? Thank you
60's and 70's have the same voltage; 350. There are 14 modules in 60's and 70's, and 16 modules in 85's and 90's. Each module is 25 volts. In 60's they also remove some cells, but the voltage stays the same. 70's have fully populated modules, same as used in an 85 or 90.
 
this actually wouldn't surprise me in the least when i had an M6 and figured out the coding i discovered ( along with a bunch of others) that bmw just limited options with a simple true or false flag written in german.. . want to add this feature to roll the windows down and up with the key fob .. hook up laptop talk to the convenience module change the flag from false to true turn car off and back on and BANG.. there it is bmw charged 500-1000 for this same feature and it really just took 10 mins ... it wouldn't surprise me at all of tesla just software limited options based off model of car in fact there is already evidence of this with the autopilot why make 5 different parts if you can make 1 and get a programmer to change what you want it to do.