Just speculation, since I have no more inside knowledge on the "why" than anyone else, but I'd have to say it's marketing. They have to justify the jump to the higher priced higher margin versions somehow. That'd be harder if their performance was similar across the board. If they marketed the S85 and the P85 at the same specs, except the P85 had red brake calipers... I mean, really, who would pay the extra $10k? So they "justify" the costs it by software limiting the lower end models.
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Just speculation, since I have no more inside knowledge on the "why" than anyone else, but I'd have to say it's marketing. They have to justify the jump to the higher priced higher margin versions somehow. That'd be harder if their performance was similar across the board. If they marketed the S85 and the P85 at the same specs, except the P85 had red brake calipers... I mean, really, who would pay the extra $10k? So they "justify" the costs it by software limiting the lower end models.
^^ From a manufacturing standpoint, using the same parts and design keep cost low and quality high... it also creates a larger margin for the higher model.
From a customer standpoint, it makes them feel good in spending more money for more... Remember the Model S is for the more fortunate who can afford more.
Model S and X are the same except for suspension height and the body.. arguably speaking you can take the Sedan top off and put a suv one on top.
From a customer standpoint, it makes them feel good in spending more money for more... Remember the Model S is for the more fortunate who can afford more.
Model S and X are the same except for suspension height and the body.. arguably speaking you can take the Sedan top off and put a suv one on top.
I've seen the vehicle config screens and there is certainly an option for "Base" and "Sport". I just assumed it determined the labeling and nothing more. But perhaps modifying the setting releases the cap on the DU. If so, then yes, a root MS can be hacked to a perf model. In reality, I believe it is more complicated. 1) If Tesla's smart about it, they would require a separate DU firmware push so a small config change should have no effect. 2) Unless all connectivity is removed, Tesla would see this change over the network and would disable it fairly quickly.
0-30 performance between the S85 and P85 is substantial so I have no reason not to believe your claims. I don't think anyone is confusing off the line S85 performance with P85 performance.
That said, two questions:
1. How did they apply a firmware update outside of Tesla? And if they did, can't anyone else theoretically do this?
2. You've performed enough autopsies on the electronics of these cars to know... Since the car is telling the supercharger network it is/ isn't allowed to charge, will we get to a point where we can simply tell salvage cars that they do indeed have supercharging? What about simply converting S85s to P85s or S40s to S60s?
It sounds like this stuff is all just a home-tune away. I guess what I'm asking is if you see us getting to the point that the BMW guys are at where we can easily code in features that our cars didn't come with.
Do you speak from experience or speculation? With BMW the biggest concern was them doing a firmware update and un-doing the coding in which case you'd simply go back in and re-code. Something tells me that with Tesla's walled garden they're not actively checking to make sure firmware hasn't been tampered with.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
If I recall correct, the car sends the VIN number to the supercharger and the supercharger is able to determine authorization. So no amount of hacking on the car side will give the car authorization if the "mothership" doesn't give it first (other than VIN spoofing, which is probably illegal). I don't know if it is whitelist or blacklist based though.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Right, we are not arguing those points though in this case, as those upgrades can be done inside the car without needing to interface with an outside Tesla controlled component (unlike in supercharging case).
Did you not read the post in this thread by wk057 that said he was part of a S60 to P85 conversion, that was just a pack swap, configuration, and firmware?
You won't be able to get S85/P85 performance out of an S60 without upgrading the battery because it has many fewer cells that are required to provide the power.
I think you might be wrong on this. If I recall correctly, according to Wk057 the handshake is done car side versus supercharger-side. So when you hook up to the supercharger the car says "I have this option" and then starts charging. For salvage cars Tesla is actively going into the car and disabling the option so that when the car supercharges it says "I don't have this option" and won't charge. This was a point of contention with certain people that felt like Tesla was going into their property and removing an option that they paid for.
So don't hold me to it but I believe the handshake is done entirely on the car, at least as it is now. With that in mind, eventually I think we'll be at a point where salvage cars are having that option flipped back on.
This is kind of OT for this thread, but...
Here's how it works today: The car has a configuration variable ON THE CAR that enables or disables supercharging (all DC charging). When it is enabled on the CAR the car is able to connect to superchargers and the car does send its VIN to the supercharger. As of today, the supercharger doesn't care what the VIN is. I've sent it all 6's, all 0's, a Roadster VIN, a VIN from a 1983 Yugo... it doesn't care. If it's enabled on the CAR the superchargers will charge the car today.
So today, when Tesla blocks a car from supercharging they connect to the CAR via their VPN link, modify the CAR'S options configuration to remove the DC charging option, without the owner's permission (which I'm pretty sure is illegal, but who knows).
That's not say they wont change this eventually. But as of right now, that's how it works. Eventually the supercharger could reject based on VIN or something else, but today it doesn't care. That's how it SHOULD work, but it is not how it actually works.
For the record, I've turned supercharging back on (undoing Tesla's illegal configuration change) for a fully repaired salvage and it works fine. If they want to block it on the supercharger side, by all means.
I think that's a good idea from Tesla because otherwise SpC would need to connect to Tesla servers to ask for permission and if network connection is down you might not be able to supercharge.
Are you really saying that if someone has not bought the supercharging option for her S60 she won't be able to charge from Chademo?
Yes and no. The quote on the Tesla page is: "For Model S without Supercharging enabled, onboard hardware must be activated to use the CHAdeMO adapter."
If you don't have, and don't want to, enable Supercharging then Tesla has a cheaper, $1,900, option to enable just the DC fast charging hardware for CHAdeMO charging. I am curious how that works if there really isn't a separate option in the car. Maybe Tesla enables Supercharging on the car and then blacklists the VIN on all of the Supercharging stations.
Have any evidence on this one? Everything I've found out so far does not agree with this.
The fact that the non-P drive unit can perform the same as the P drive unit with the same temperature rises, power use, etc after flashing is pretty telling. I've physically seen a non-P drive unit tear down, and photos of a P drive unit tear down... no noticeable differences.
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