Paint "topper" /sealant question

[insaneoctane]

I am trying to understand some facts in this world of marketing hype. Here's my question / thought:
Assuming I am after making my car as "hydrophobic" as possible because I want to make washing and drying as simple as possible. So, I have been reading (and reading and reading) and realized that all the "best" ceramic (nano or whatever) coatings need to be "reloaded" or "topped" to maintain the best water effects or hydrophobic-Ness. The coating lasts a long time, but it sounds like the first thing to go is the hydrophobic nature. So thinking about it if all these coatings need a sealant or topper to maintain the best hydrophobic effect, could I just add the sealant to my synthetic wax? If my goal is just hydrophobic effect, why can't I just just add that? Also, the logical follow up question is what is the most hydrophobic sealant /topper? Exo?
Thoughts?

 

[cpj777]

If you are only after the hydrophobic properties, you could just apply a sealant to your car every 4 to 6 months. Personally, I put a sealant (Carpro Hydro2) over ppf on my M3. It's been a month and a half and still looks really shiny and still has the hydrophobic properties. The sealant gives the car a nice shine and hydrophobic properties, but it's much cheaper and super easy to apply.

This site has some good info on the differences:
Wax, Paint Sealant, and Coatings: What’s the Difference?

 

[insaneoctane]

Just what I was thinking

 

[lee619]

If you are only after the hydrophobic properties, you could just apply a sealant to your car every 4 to 6 months. Personally, I put a sealant (Carpro Hydro2) over ppf on my M3. It's been a month and a half and still looks really shiny and still has the hydrophobic properties. The sealant gives the car a nice shine and hydrophobic properties, but it's much cheaper and super easy to apply.

This site has some good info on the differences:
Wax, Paint Sealant, and Coatings: What’s the Difference?

How often do you have to redo the sealant? Did you immediately apply this sealant after your first wash of your m3? Curious because I'm planning to hand wash my m3 when I get this Sunday but not sure when I should apply a new sealant on it

 

[insaneoctane]

Sealant or top coat should be applicable whenever the car is clean.. .

 

[lee619]

Sealant or top coat should be applicable whenever the car is clean.. .

Sorry i may have asked my question vaguely, i meant although we can put on sealant everytime, how long does the sealant last so I wont have to do it every car wash? Or will it come off after every wash?

 

[kev1n]

there are spray on ceramic coatings that claim to last 3-6 months. never tried using one yet though.

wax would go on top of the coating but id say theres really no point of wax if youre coating the car

 

[Uncle Paul]

Primer goes on to protect the metal.
Color coat goes on to protect the primer.
Clear coat goes on to protect the color coat.
Plastic film goes on to protect the clear coat.
Wax or ceramic coating goes on to protect the plastic protection.
Ceramic enhancement goes on to renew the ceramic coats water shedding properities.

Seems like it never ends, but there is great pride in driving a clean and shiney vehicle

 

[insaneoctane]

Interesting, but what about sealants and toppers?

 

[cpj777]

Sorry i may have asked my question vaguely, i meant although we can put on sealant everytime, how long does the sealant last so I wont have to do it every car wash? Or will it come off after every wash?

It will probably depend on the product. The one I used (hydro2) claims to last up to 3 months, although I’ve seen some people claim it lasts 4 to 6 months for them. You do not need to reapply every car wash. I don’t know all of the chemistry theory behind it, but it is made with SiO2, which is what glass/quartz is made of: Silicon dioxide - Wikipedia

More info:
Hydrophobic silica - Wikipedia

 

[TaoJones]

In the world of nanocoatings, Modesta is regarded as the best for black cars. It’s thicker, takes longer, and has a longer warranty (10 years).

Opti-Coat in my mind ranks second, C-Quartz after that, and the list goes on. artsci’s testing of Permanon should be required reading.

Putting a nanocoating on top of a wrap is in my mind overkill.

Rest assured that each statement above will be contested. Welcome to the religion and politics of aftermarket care.

For hydrophobic properties, Optimum’s No Rinse Blue (no wax) is great but it won’t last much past the next car wash. On the other end of the curve would be one of the coatings referenced above, but here’s the kicker - and upon this point I would think there would be near consensus:

No matter what you do, if you don’t reapply something annually or quarterly (Opti-Seal, more Permanon, carnauba wax) or as part of every wash (depending upon what you’re starting with), and if you don’t decontaminate your car once in awhile to get all the crud out, optimum hydrophobia will not be yours.

I have a friend who owns 7 black cars. He pays someone to wax them every 3 months and otherwise runs them through whatever car wash he drives by. That’s it, and he’s happy as a clam. You can see swirls all day long. Doesn’t matter one bit to him.

Then you have absolutely gorgeous examples of mirror-like glossiness (see the artsci thread referenced above and numerous others).

Hydrophobic surface prep is easy. Getting and keeping that glossy perfection? Heh. Enter the matrix of skills and time.

 

[lee619]

It will probably depend on the product. The one I used (hydro2) claims to last up to 3 months, although I’ve seen some people claim it lasts 4 to 6 months for them. You do not need to reapply every car wash. I don’t know all of the chemistry theory behind it, but it is made with SiO2, which is what glass/quartz is made of: Silicon dioxide - Wikipedia

More info:
Hydrophobic silica - Wikipedia

Awesome, this is what I was looking for! Good to know and I'll for sure be getting the sealant your recommended.

 

[rhaekar]

Why go with wax in the first place if you're going to have to keep reapplying it constantly to maintain the gloss?

The only real advantage of wax has over ceramic is if you get a scratch in the clear coat you don't have to take down all the ceramic coating to level the clear coat.

The silica sealant doesn't have to be reapplied that often. It depends on how often you wash your car.

CQuartz seems to have the best gloss and the hydrophobic effects last the longest.

 

[cmghoughton]

I fell for the facebook add and tried F11 on my truck and now on my M3. Been pretty happy with both vehicles with the shine and the water beading off but now looking into TopCoat. The F11 seemed to last about 2 months before it would need the "touch" up product or wash and then would look pretty good again. I typically hit a car wash once a week if I can depending on the weather.

 

[joebruin77]

In your original post, you mentioned you already have a synthetic wax on your car. If you want to use a sealant, typically you want to apply a sealant to clean, decontaminated, unprotected paint (i.e. no wax). If you apply a sealant, you would want to remove the existing wax first. If you want to apply both a sealant and a wax, the sealant is applied first to the clean paint, and then the wax would be applied on top of the sealant after the sealant has cured sufficiently.

If you don't want to remove the wax and simply want a simple "topper" to give more hydrophobic properties, here are some simple, easy to apply products I have tried and found to provide notable increase in hydrophobic properties.

Sonax Brilliant Shine Detailer - this is a detail spray that is known for extreme hydrophobic properties. However, it is not as slick and can feel a little "grabby". But if hydrophobic properties is what you are after, look no further.

Technicians Choice Ceramic Detail Spray - this is a detail spray that does have some ceramic (SiO2) in it. I love this product in that it also increases the gloss and slickness as well as hydrophobic properties. I have used it on my windshield before a rain storm and water beads like Rain-X. Plus it is a great value. You can buy a whole gallon of the stuff for around $40-$45.

Meguiars Ulitmate Quick Wax or Meguiars D156 Synthetic Spray Wax - This is an older type of synthetic spray wax. The D156 has been one of my favorite spray waxes for many years.

Finally, my current favorite Ceramic Spray Sealant is The Last Coat 2.0 . I suggest only buying and using this product if you first remove the existing wax, as it does need to be applied to clean, unprotected paint. The LC 2.0 is in my opinion a more durable spray sealant. I believe it will last a lot longer than F11 cmghoughton mentioned.
The same company makes another product called Amp. Amp is also a ceramic spray. But instead of focussing on long-lasting protection, it is designed to give gloss, slickness, and hydrophobic properties a boost.

With any of these products, you can either use them on clean dry paint. Or you can use them as drying aids after a wash.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

A low tech but so far effective approach for us has been Meguiars hybrid ceramic wax. (It is not a ceramic coating nor is it marketed as such). Kind of a two part process to put it on. Ist time is a spray on and buff off approach as per normal. Every time after that is spray it on a clean wet car and hose it off. Super hydrophobic. We have been using on the Leaf for about 6 months with super results. Car never seems to get dirty anymore. Side benefit is you rarely need wipers anymore. Re-apply (spray on and hose off) every 2 - 3 months or so. We still use Meguiars detailer on it regularly. Will be doing Jarvis (wifes model 3) this week.

Anyway, there my two bits.

 

[zhu-]

I'd love to get people's opinions on these new ceramic SiO2 waterless wash products like Adam's which seems to have good reviews on amazon. If the car isn't entirely clean and I use them, is it going to "lock in" the dirt like with traditional ceramic coat? I've been using green wash and wax ONR for years and nothing has beat it so far so would be great to get a comparison if anyone has experience.

 

[joebruin77]

I have used ONR with wax and it is a great rinseless wash. I have used many waterless washes but not one that is SiO2 infused. My guess is that a SiO2 waterless wash will not lock in dirt and will clean effectively. There is not nearly enough SiO2 in it to lock in dirt like a ceramic coating would. I also would guess that an SiO2 waterless wash would be best suited for a car that has a ceramic coating or ceramic sealant as its base protection.

If you like the Optimum line of products, you can use Optimum Spray Wax and Optimum Detailer and Gloss Enhancers. Optimum also offers a great ceramic spray sealant called Hyper Seal. It is from their professional line OptiCoat so you have to order Hyper Seal directly from OptiCoat or purchase it from a car detailing professional.

 

[insaneoctane]

I wrote this thread almost 2 years ago. While I haven't found any wholly grails, I have found a decent approach that works for me. I have kept my synthetic wax which is optimum car wax (OCW). I wash my vehicle at least 90% of the time with ONR (green). On my cleaned, wet car, I spray a home brew "topper" that acts as both a drying aide and reloader. The mixture is basically 4:1 distilled water to Optimum Instant Detailer (OID) with 10% to 20% OCW mixed in. I just mix 20 oz water, 5 oz OID, and 3 oz OCW in a wide mouth 30 oz spray bottle from Home Depot. I discovered this concoction after trying to use OCW as my topper for a little while. After a few washes, I had plenty of wax, adding more was creating wax residue that required some rubbing to remove. That's what got me thinking about a drying aide. I found the recipe in an optimum forum and tweaked the OCW down a little bit. Probably could go full 20% if you use blue ONR to wash, but with green I found 10% was the ticket. Anyway, this has worked well for me. My synthetic wax base coat basically lasts forever. After about 12 months, I did reapply. The car is well protected, slick and fairly hydrophobic. Nothing it's perfect, but this is pretty good!

 

[insaneoctane]

Maybe I'll update with a photo soon....