Panasonic v LG Batteries

[Anxio]

I’m due to swap my 69 MP3- for a LR next month (company car) and so dipped back on to the forums. There I stumbled across the Tesla motor club thread which had a long (69 page) thread on the subject of Panasonic V LG batteries. If I understand the gist of that thread, and I admit I only skim read it, Tesla are no longer using LG batteries in Europe as of Q2 (except to the UK). I got the distinct impression that this was due to some shortcomings in the LG battery. In particular slower charge speeds and a lower capacity (75Kwh v 82Kwh). There appeared to be some relief expressed on that forum that Tesla had dropped the LG across Europe and an expectation that in due course the LR would as a consequence of the larger capacity of the Panasonic battery be given a larger EPA/WLTP rating. I was just surprised how little attention this subject seems to have attracted from UK customers. It felt a bit like we were getting the cast offs if I’m honest.

On a slight tangent. Has anyone with a newish LR model 3 seen the 100% SOC that matched the EPA rating 353 miles ?

 

[ElectricChapel]

I’ve been following that thread, which caused me to cancel my LR order that was due for collection next week.

I think UK consumers are kept in the dark regarding the battery differences due to the lack of documentation (ie Certificate of conformity) that comes with the vehicle. Ignorance is (probably) bliss.

 

[Anxio]

Perhaps. It did feel as though the European customers was all over this subject and then I looked on the UK forum and not a peep really. No wonder they’re (Tesla) are shipping them here. Of course I don’t think the USA ever had LG.

 

[tridge]

On a slight tangent. Has anyone with a newish LR model 3 seen the 100% SOC that matched the EPA rating 353 miles ?

I've seen 331 miles at 100% in my MY21 M3 LR delivered Q4 2020. I put the shortfall down to the fact we still haven't got into summer yet so ambient temps are quite cold. I was vaguely aware of two different batteries but hadn't read the thread mentioned closely enough to realise the stark reality (?) you outline above. The lack of a stated capacity (on say a certificate on conformity) anywhere was frustrating when I was trying to crunch some of the numbers the car tells you about, but in terms of use able capacity under discharge I've never got near 70kWh even. For me 17kWh seems to equate to 25% charge.

 

[Anxio]

Yes again. Certainly when I picked up my model 3 there was no COC provided. I had to work out what the Europeans we’re talking about on that thread. They (at least some of the EU countries) do get them. And think they’re important.

I am curious to see how may UK customers have had the 353 EPA range.

 

[trueadm]

I’m due to swap my 69 MP3- for a LR next month (company car) and so dipped back on to the forums. There I stumbled across the Tesla motor club thread which had a long (69 page) thread on the subject of Panasonic V LG batteries. If I understand the gist of that thread, and I admit I only skim read it, Tesla are no longer using LG batteries in Europe as of Q2 (except to the UK). I got the distinct impression that this was due to some shortcomings in the LG battery. In particular slower charge speeds and a lower capacity (75Kwh v 82Kwh). There appeared to be some relief expressed on that forum that Tesla had dropped the LG across Europe and an expectation that in due course the LR would as a consequence of the larger capacity of the Panasonic battery be given a larger EPA/WLTP rating. I was just surprised how little attention this subject seems to have attracted from UK customers. It felt a bit like we were getting the cast offs if I’m honest.

On a slight tangent. Has anyone with a newish LR model 3 seen the 100% SOC that matched the EPA rating 353 miles ?

Can you link to this thread please?

 

[ElectricChapel]

Can you link to this thread please?

This is the thread, and this recent post has a summary of the battery situation MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

 

[Jibjab]

Europe also has soft locked Panasonic batteries to match the LG lower capacity. No soft locks in the US.

 

[imstitch]

Welcome to being a RHD market. We won't see M-S or M-X until mid 2022 at best and when we do finally see the M-Y you can bet your left arm it will be imported with all the old features from China rather than Berlin with new paint, design and batteries.

 

[Anxio]

I think one of the posters on the master thread said Tesla had stopped using LG. It may be that the last of the LG batteries are being used on the UK market before we too get the 82 Panasonic like continental Europe. One of the German posters said that Tesla were making it clear over there that there was a difference in the vehicle range depending on which battery you got, basically advertising 2 different LR vehicles. The 82 Panasonic version now advertised (called maximum range perhaps but that’s just from memory) has approximately 35 KM additional range. It was on about page 58 of the master battery thread.

 

[NewbieT]

It probably stems from production capacity and shipping routes more that an anti- British vibe. More transparency on battery would be good- both what you’re buying and what you have.

 

[Jason71]

So I guess we know we are getting the Panasonic when our LR range on the Web site goes from 360 to 380 like it is on the mainland then.

 

[Anxio]

Of course I don’t think for one second it is personal . It could be for several reasons. For example, they (the German/Dutch etc Tesla owners) may be more ’on’ this issue. Where as we like to talk about ‘accessories’. But more transparency would be good, particularly if you were considering buying a LR at the moment as I could see this effecting residual values on the LR.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

From what I've been able to deduce there are 3 battery codes

BT37 - the original Panasonic 75kwh battery
BT38 - the LG 75kwh battery
BT42 - the Panasonic 82kwh battery

The BT37 is no longer used in producrtion and all the cars that have it, both L and P, seem to be Fremont built
The BT38 battery was used in both fremont and china built LR cars for a while but now only on China built LR cars
The BT42 is used in Fremont built LR and all Performance cars cars whether Fremont of China

If you buy a mainland european LR then its Fremont built and uses the BT42 battery (there are a few cars knocking around that were made in China at the beginning of the year with the BT38 battery)
If you buy a UK LR then its China built with the BT38 battery so not only does it have the suspected LG battery, its lower capacity.

You don't really get any choice.

 

[Anxio]

No. No choice. Except perhaps to wait if they are moving to the 82 KWh. I assume the EPA/WLTP rating was measured using the LG not just the more widely used Panasonic? I only ask because everyone seems to charge the LR to 100 SOC (at some point) but don’t get the EPA rating miles. They assume it’s just them and the conditions but.....

 

[MrBadger]

The displayed mileage has nothing to do with conditions, temperature, driving style, advertised range etc.

It is just an approximation of the amount of energy the car (BMS) thinks is in the battery (accuracy drifts wildly over time - its an inexact science) multiplied by a constant (loosely based on EPA range) that Tesla has calculated and occasionally updates that give an approximation of the vehicles range if the vehicle was driven at an efficiency that Tesla think correlates with the range.

Similarly the % is again, an approximation of the amount of usable energy the car (BMS) thinks is in the battery. Note that the app and the car display the usable capacity of the battery which will vary depending on battery temperature - other apps such as TeslaFi also display the non temperature corrected % too. Being the usable capacity, it is possible for the car not to allow a max charge limit to be set at 100%. As the usable % is dependent on temperature, it is possible that app and car % rise, or do not deplete as fast as expected as the battery warms,

Due to various factors, including the BMS taking another guess at energy in the battery, the cars % can fluctuate up or down by many % when just sitting idle.

 

[Anxio]

How ever the range displayed in the battery is calculated (and I did think temperature affected this) it is calibrated to whatever Tesla chooses. In the uk EPA. What I find strange is that few LR owners seem to get the battery to display EPA max range even on new vehicles. My performance actually did when it was new. All anecdotal of course. I just think it curious.

At the risk of thread creep I’ve never understood the reduced regen applied by the car even with a reduced charge %. So say 80% and still not max regen. The explanation I read somewhere once was that this was some form of battery protection (to prevent the battery becoming overcharged) but really ?.....it’s not likely to regenerate 20%.

 

[init6]

I've just checked my car and the max range I have had is 344.59 miles. I only got the car in December last year, so have not seen proper summer temperatures yet. That's close enough to EPA for me.

 

[MrBadger]

How ever the range displayed in the battery is calculated (and I did think temperature affected this) it is calibrated to whatever Tesla chooses.

Your right, temperature does affect the displayed range.

Energy / battery - why no adaptive range?
Energy / battery - why no adaptive range?

And Tesla have been known to change the calibration (eg 2021.4.2 - Your car will now display a slightly higher range to more accurately reflect the capacity of the battery) plus the underlying usable energy in the battery could be changing even when the vehicle is not being driven.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

There can be confuision about temperatiure and displayed range

Temperature does not change the wh/m metric they use, nor does driving style, its fixed (although some say that number changes, I'm less coninced as its the the rated figure they use)

Temperature does however change the amount of energy the battery can hold, and a cold battery has less available energy when full than a warm battery and as a result the BMS reports fewer miles.

But people trying to display the rated range, its not easy because of ambient temperature, BMS calibration etc.