Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Panel (mis)alignment and/or gap getting worse?!

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
This... I just gave up. Can't believe you have 7 attempted fixes. I live 2+ hrs away and its just too much work to keep taking days off to mess with it so I gave up at 3 attempts. Each time they would scratch or break more parts. I convinced them to flat bed the vehicle up to service this last time and it arrived back with scratches on all the rims that wont go away from the strap marks... I give up. The quality and service issues took all the fun out of what was a great initial experience.:(

In for the 8th shortly. :)
I’m nothing if not persistent (and gullible and stupid but it’s a bit late for that).
 
  • Funny
Reactions: super20g
Just curious ......

So many defects appear to be simply sloppy workmanship, carelessness, or no pride in effort. That is only explanation for misaligned components, gaps, scratches, dings, trash in paint, and on and on.
Is Tesla having labor or morale issue in Fremont? Maybe Fremont is too close to the Bay Area.
Other manufacturers are building fine automobiles elsewhere in the USA.

It would be great to hear from an assembly line worker about factory conditions, and an explanation for defects.

We've all watched the assembly of automobiles on TV, where inspectors examine each vehicle, and mark areas that need additional attention. Has Tesla eliminated those inspections in a cost cutting effort?

And what about the S .... are they experiencing similar careless defects .... I haven't heard or read of any.

Opinion: Tesla needs to correct the defects in the assembly of the 3 before introducing the Y and a pick-up.
IMO this is an engineering problem and not necessarily assembly related. The parts of an assembly should fit together tightly. If they don't, there could be an issue with the manufacturing tolerances of the individual parts(too large). Large manufacturing tolerances allow Tesla to speed up both manufacturing and assembly - less scrap, inspection, and cost.

I'm pretty sure the parts of most other cars physically would not fit together with some of the asymmetrical gaps we see on the Model 3.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Stirfelt
In for the 8th shortly. :)
I’m nothing if not persistent (and gullible and stupid but it’s a bit late for that).
Spoke with a service adviser yesterday after he reviewed my emailed photos and comments. He asked if I would drop off the car at a service center and reassured me that all of the horror stories I've read online are from people using 3rd party body shops, not Tesla.

He claimed the popping is not normal and they have a repair that fixes it. I'm curious what exactly the repair is and will be confirming before they perform any work. He also added the panel alignment looks off, and they can fix it next time my car is in for service to replace scratched window trim. I would be furious if I got the car back with scratched rims, paint or clear bra!
 
IMO this is an engineering problem and not necessarily assembly related. The parts of an assembly should fit together tightly. If they don't, there could be an issue with the manufacturing tolerances of the individual parts(too large).

No doubt about it. VW and Audi have no problem churning perfectly decent cars in Mexico with what’s probably a less experienced workforce.

Bolting things together is easier if they fit together properly. Assembly should be as close as possible to plain labor and not an art.
 
In for the 8th shortly. :)
I’m nothing if not persistent (and gullible and stupid but it’s a bit late for that).
TeeEmCee, this issue is haunting me.

Today a manufacturing industry magazine I follow posted a technical article describing differences in thermal expansion for different materials. 30 minutes later and I'm sucked in after finding even more relevant material online - Thermo-Mechanical Coupled-Field Analysis of Car Front Bumper by Finite Element Approach.

Thermal Expansion | Dover Motion

https://www.ijert.org/research/ther...y-finite-element-approach-IJERTV3IS111223.pdf

What's interesting is many of these studies were performed with 30-50° temperature gradients. This is what lead me to believe strange things can happen due to a 70-90° temperature gradient - cold 20° battery plugging in to 120 kW supercharger until battery is hot enough that cooling turns on (115-120°). I won't bore you with calculations, but this results in significantly more displacement than an ICE car with steel panels and a much smaller temperature gradient.

It's evident a panel in the floor is flexing a few millimeters creating the popping noise. My Tesla service advisor claims they have a solution for the popping. What's ironic is the second link contains a study where the obvious was concluded - adding more clips to restrain mating parts will limit movement. I'm sure this is part of Tesla's solution.

I stand by my previous point that my car is accident (and scratch) free and any movement in the front fascia is a result of loosely toleranced parts of various materials.

With very different coefficients of thermal expansion it is very difficult for the following mating parts to REMAIN in alignment during extreme changes in temperature without additional supports/clips.

1. Aluminum hood
2. Polycarbonate head lights
3. Plastic bumper
4. STEEL quarter panel

Something to think about if you have to continue taking your car back for work...still undecided if I'll accept Tesla's offer to realign my front fascia in fear of creating another problem.
 
TeeEmCee, this issue is haunting me.

Today a manufacturing industry magazine I follow posted a technical article describing differences in thermal expansion for different materials. 30 minutes later and I'm sucked in after finding even more relevant material online - Thermo-Mechanical Coupled-Field Analysis of Car Front Bumper by Finite Element Approach.

Thermal Expansion | Dover Motion

https://www.ijert.org/research/ther...y-finite-element-approach-IJERTV3IS111223.pdf

What's interesting is many of these studies were performed with 30-50° temperature gradients. This is what lead me to believe strange things can happen due to a 70-90° temperature gradient - cold 20° battery plugging in to 120 kW supercharger until battery is hot enough that cooling turns on (115-120°). I won't bore you with calculations, but this results in significantly more displacement than an ICE car with steel panels and a much smaller temperature gradient.

It's evident a panel in the floor is flexing a few millimeters creating the popping noise. My Tesla service advisor claims they have a solution for the popping. What's ironic is the second link contains a study where the obvious was concluded - adding more clips to restrain mating parts will limit movement. I'm sure this is part of Tesla's solution.

I stand by my previous point that my car is accident (and scratch) free and any movement in the front fascia is a result of loosely toleranced parts of various materials.

With very different coefficients of thermal expansion it is very difficult for the following mating parts to REMAIN in alignment during extreme changes in temperature without additional supports/clips.

1. Aluminum hood
2. Polycarbonate head lights
3. Plastic bumper
4. STEEL quarter panel

Something to think about if you have to continue taking your car back for work...still undecided if I'll accept Tesla's offer to realign my front fascia in fear of creating another problem.

File this one under the "Bloody Obvious" category: :)

Basic geometry tells us that the distance between the ends of a segment differs when the respective segment is straight vs curved. If it repeatedly goes between straight and curved, then those ends necessarily shift. If the part in question is bolted into something more rigid, then the fasteners will weaken with this repeated expansion.

In our case, I think most of the issues are a lot less fancy than thermal expansion. The normal-use vibration and twisting of the vehicle is causing all sorts of fasteners to come loose, because of the crappy tolerances and possibly poorly thought out design (that and the "we drove it around the factory a couple of times" testing program). My car is in for loose chassis bolts again (among other garden-variety issues). Name one car you had where the suspension components come loose twice in a few months and 3K miles. I can't think of any, including the highly advanced Renault 12 I was handed down when I started driving.


Funny side-note on thermal expansion:

My Audis have this third-world windshield washer nozzle design, each with 3 water jets. The nozzles are adjustable, and they are essentially little plastic spheres inside a plastic housing. Despite them being either the same or a very similar type of plastic as their housing, the expansion and contraction slowly rotates them to the point where, after a few early spring or late fall weeks, none of them hit the windshield anymore.
 
So, have you calculated how much hood and bumper cover alignment will change over temperature?
What do other manufacturers do to solve this problem?

I'm wondering if, before you move your furniture, you sit down and calculate the torsional rigidity of each piece, in order to determine how to safely rotate each piece through hallways and door frames and all that. :)
 
  • Funny
Reactions: Daniel in SD
I'm wondering if, before you move your furniture, you sit down and calculate the torsional rigidity of each piece, in order to determine how to safely rotate each piece through hallways and door frames and all that. :)
I'm just wondering what kind of change in hood alignment is normal as we head in to spring. I'll take a baseline measurement and report anything out of the ordinary to the SC and this thread.
 
I'm just wondering what kind of change in hood alignment is normal as we head in to spring. I'll take a baseline measurement and report anything out of the ordinary to the SC and this thread.
Parts changing size resulting in uneven panel gaps as I described is a result of a sharp temperature change and should really be most prevalent for those of us in cold climates. The battery's cooling mechanism is activated between 115° and 120°. For someone in California where a cold day is 60°, the allowable temperature increase until it reaches 120° is only 60°. Someone in a cold climate where the temperature is 0° would experience far different results as the temperature changed almost 2x as much while charging.

At no time does the temperature of any part of an ICE vehicle heat from freezing to 120° over the course of 5-10 minutes. Kind of a unique situation in the auto world.
 
So, have you calculated how much hood and bumper cover alignment will change over temperature?
What do other manufacturers do to solve this problem?
I did take the time to run this calculation and it's possible the thermal expansion is exceeding the tolerances of connections between individual component parts. It's impossible for me to make a firm conclusion without viewing an exploded view of the car to analyze support structures, insulation, and the source of heat.

I did not do a very good job explaining the coefficient of thermal expansion in my previous message. Thermal expansion typically is not an issue with ICE vehicles because they do not experience a huge spike in temperature when fueling, or any time at all. Thermal expansion directly relates to change in temperature, and the rapid increase in temperature is directly caused by supercharging. Also working in favor of ICE vehicles is steel construction vs. aluminum. The coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is roughly half that of aluminum, meaning aluminum will expand 1.5-2x more than steel over the same length and change in temperature.

So now that we understand this crazy fast temperature swing is unique to Tesla, why aren't Model S and X owners complaining of the same symptoms? Here's a possibility - the Model S was made with A LOT more aluminum than previous models.
Tesla Model 3: here’s the alloy mix of the Model 3 body

In summary, most other cars are made of metals/materials that do not expand/contract as much as aluminum due to changes in temperature. And they ultimately do not experience such a high temperature gradient.
 
I did take the time to run this calculation and it's possible the thermal expansion is exceeding the tolerances of connections between individual component parts. It's impossible for me to make a firm conclusion without viewing an exploded view of the car to analyze support structures, insulation, and the source of heat.

I did not do a very good job explaining the coefficient of thermal expansion in my previous message. Thermal expansion typically is not an issue with ICE vehicles because they do not experience a huge spike in temperature when fueling, or any time at all. Thermal expansion directly relates to change in temperature, and the rapid increase in temperature is directly caused by supercharging. Also working in favor of ICE vehicles is steel construction vs. aluminum. The coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is roughly half that of aluminum, meaning aluminum will expand 1.5-2x more than steel over the same length and change in temperature.

So now that we understand this crazy fast temperature swing is unique to Tesla, why aren't Model S and X owners complaining of the same symptoms? Here's a possibility - the Model S was made with A LOT more aluminum than previous models.
Tesla Model 3: here’s the alloy mix of the Model 3 body

In summary, most other cars are made of metals/materials that do not expand/contract as much as aluminum due to changes in temperature. And they ultimately do not experience such a high temperature gradient.

The hood gets hot when you charge the battery? Really?
 
WTT TF: "I’ve noticed cars with VIN 135-150XXX look much better"
Oh I hope that is true; I want it to be true; I know we all want it to be true.

I keep thinking about WATT TF's comment about panels sized for easy assembly.
Would it not follow that if the panels have so much space to move about with temperature change ... in time there would be a multitude of loose and rattling panels?
OTOH, building, bridges and airplanes have expansion joints designed to compensate for expansion.
I've read the SR-71 expands 18 inches at top speed.
Might the Tesla have expansion considerationdesigned into the panels????
 
Expansion isn't a big deal for car body parts. They don't get that hot.

Gaps are caused by poor manufacturing of the panels and by poor fitting when welding or fixing with bolts or clips. When fixing there is some slack so that the panels can be adjusted before the nuts are tightened. That's how other brands get the gaps so small and uniform.

I get the impression that Tesla is more focused on volume than on quality. Improving the panel gaps at the factory adds a bit of extra time to manufacturing.
 
Mock the OP who is a mechanical engineer with extensive experience in thermodynamics and heat transfer...

At no time does the temperature of any part of an ICE vehicle heat from freezing to 120° over the course of 5-10 minutes. Kind of a unique situation in the auto world.

I am truly sorry that you are having great difficulty getting what should be relatively simple problems fixed on your car :mad:, and I sincerely hope that your next visit to a service center is totally different (in a good way) from all the prior ones.:)

I am also hoping that you can help us understand a couple of engineering related items given your experience.

1) Most people would consider the cooling system to be part of an ICE vehicle. When one starts driving in sub-zero temperatures (especially with heavy loads on the engine such as significant acceleration, for example) what happens to the temperature of the coolant over a 5-10 minute period? :oops:

2) Similarly, ICE vehicles have an exhaust system starting at the manifold, going through the catalyst and the muffler and out the exhaust. What happens to the temperature of those components in the same situation? :oops:
 
  • Like
Reactions: ricohman
I am truly sorry that you are having great difficulty getting what should be relatively simple problems fixed on your car :mad:, and I sincerely hope that your next visit to a service center is totally different (in a good way) from all the prior ones.:)

I am also hoping that you can help us understand a couple of engineering related items given your experience.

1) Most people would consider the cooling system to be part of an ICE vehicle. When one starts driving in sub-zero temperatures (especially with heavy loads on the engine such as significant acceleration, for example) what happens to the temperature of the coolant over a 5-10 minute period? :oops:

2) Similarly, ICE vehicles have an exhaust system starting at the manifold, going through the catalyst and the muffler and out the exhaust. What happens to the temperature of those components in the same situation? :oops:
KG M3 - I'm very happy to chime in here.

It's important to understand the temperature gradient created by ICE vs. EV. The battery and surrounding components absorb a very high amount of energy when charging at 120kw causing them to get hot almost immediately. Imagine having a device that could charge your iPhone from 0% to 100% in 15 seonds - after 15 seconds both the phone and charger would be dangerously hot from transferring the necessary energy over 15 seconds rather than 30 minutes.

An engine is in a controlled, ventilated compartment (intake/grill and exhaust) that slowly heats up. Heat generation in an ICE vehicle occurs slowly hence the amount of time it takes to warm the cabin. Leaving an ICE vehicle outside in below freezing temps before starting it and immediately holding RPM at redline often results in cracked cylinder heads due to thermal expansion - the outer side of the engine is cold and the inner side quickly becomes hot (expands) due to burned fuel. Uneven heat distribution can cause the head to crack, even after 200+ years of ICE development...

The unique aspect of an EV is its ability to instantaneously generate an immense amount of internal heat over a large surface area, comparable to redlining a frozen ICE vehicle for an extended period of time. IMO this is what leads to the floor popping and potentially panel gaps changing - I think bracket location could be moving but doubt panels are changing size.