Panel upgrade

[SoCal Dave]

As far as load calculations its true that many houses use less power per device, however I'd be surprised if overall the house trend isnt to heavier power useage overall. As electric cars get more popular homes will need more not less capacity. A dozen LED lights vs incandecent barely registers on your main panel load. Its things like an EV charging, air and water heating and cooling, and pumping water that make the biggest demand on a main panel.

EV charging is new, but most homes don't have an EV vehicle.

A new AC is 20-40% more efficient than one from 20+ years ago.Add the better insulation and air sealing practices and the AC becomes even more efficient. Variable speed pool pumps can use 1/10th the power. Energy Star appliances are significantly more efficient than older appliances. Refrigerators from 20 years ago would use 3-4 times the power of modern one.

For a larger house like mine, incandescent lighting could be pretty significant with down lights and exterior lights adding up especially over the many hours they are used. I'd estimate my lighting, if I had incandescent, would be 5-10kWh per day in the winter. Though admittedly I probably wouldn't be letting as many incandescent lights run for as long as I let the LED counterparts go.

If I was building a new house would I go small on the main panel? Absolutely not, I would go with a 225A or 400A as the cost difference is pretty minor compared to a lower rated panel. However, I would definitely push back on a service upgrade if I already had a 200A panel for an existing house.

 

[CalMdl3]

As for providing diagrams at the planning stage, not a set of city approved installed plans, I’d be willing to bet that the vast majority of homeowners buying a system don’t care to see the line-drawings. They just want it set up, get their PTO and know the system is being maintained. Seriously doubt most people have an electrical background or care to learn the specifics of what’s installed.

Also doubt Tesla has enough trained design planners available to answer tons of phone questions and still do their design work. Wildfires areas and others wanting solar/solar+PWs across the country hoping for getting installs while the Federal incentives are still available is doing enough to keep these guys busy. In my area I heard there were 5 install teams working 6 days a week and staying fully booked. We had a 3-team doing our PW/equipment install and I think 6 on our solar team. One of our advisors said he had over 500 customers he was working with so apologized for any delay responding to calls or emails we might have sent. So really doubt anyone will get to directly speak with a designer.

I will say we have had a good response from Tesla getting back to us with questions. Sometimes got right through, otherwise within a day or two, and on a few occasions early on in the planning stage, within the week. I’d say most of our phone calls to get through and waiting on hold were 15 minutes or less, a few much longer. If you’re expecting immediate responses however or a different level of communication, like with design team directly, then a smaller firm with fewer customers might be the better route for you. That’s where they can shine if they are a good company. With Tesla you have a large growing base of customers orders and lower prices due to scale, but only so many employees to handle the influx of orders.

I agree - most people just want the system installed at the price quoted in a reasonable time frame. They don’t need or want the complexity of having to deal with loads and calculations. I certainly would have preferred that. The problem is they kept coming back and telling me it was going to cost more because of my existing panel. The more I got educated and asked why - suddenly things got less expensive. If I can get them to accept using my current Square D 200 amp/ 225 bus rating panel - I will be a happy camper. I wonder what happens when people don’t question these panel upgrades - I assume 90% are needed but based on my experience there might be some that aren’t. I wonder if the install team ever shows up and tells the customer they don’t need an upgrade after having signed off on it?

I agree Tesla’s aggressive pricing + federal incentive + threat of wild fire power safety shut offs has them overloaded.

I would go with a smaller installer for an additional charge of a few % for better service. In my case I assume the small installer would avoid a $5k MPU if it is not needed - it would probably save money in the long run anyway. We will see where I get with Tesla. Couple of questions - Would I get the same ecosystem integration- eg the Powerwall gateway and Tesla In app control if it is installed by third party? Do third parties have access to the latest powerwalls and gateways? Most of the other quotes I got were more than double the price and involved LG or another brand battery. Thank goodness for this forum and the knowledgeable people posting on it. You all may have saved me $5,000.

 

[jjrandorin]

Couple of questions - Would I get the same ecosystem integration- eg the Powerwall gateway and Tesla In app control if it is installed by third party? Do third parties have access to the latest powerwalls and gateways? Most of the other quotes I got were more than double the price and involved LG or another brand battery. Thank goodness for this forum and the knowledgeable people posting on it. You all may have saved me $5,000.

If the third party installer is a tesla certified one, the end result will look the same as it relates to your access in the tesla app, etc. You will see the same things in the app going with tesla or a third party. The third party will be able to order whatever the latest powerwals and gateways are. The difference currently as far as it relates to hardware, is that the third party may not have the same access to the powerwalls that tesla does.

meaning, the third party might be backordered" on the powerwall further than tesla is, either because of their workload, or lack of powerwall availability.

 

[CalMdl3]

The reason they wont give you access to those people is because this is how they keep the prices super cheap, remove customer access to the real knowledge. I already have a job at a smaller installer so it was more of a joke.

If they gave you diagrams, you'd ask more questions. Questions cost time and people, which Tesla wants to remove. Ideally they want you to click on the button, buy the system and then they figure it out and you get whatever delays or extras that ensue.

Alternatively you hire a smaller installer whos reputation requires them to be responsive to every call and email. This service costs money, and most people come here comparing their local installer pricing compared to Tesla. The differences are in the service, if it is this hard to get an answer on the front side. What answers will you get when they have your install complete? Will you still be a priority if your inverter or Powerwall goes down?

Agree small business almost always provide better service because of the immediate feedback loop. When you install solar and powerwalls is it essentially identical to what you get from Tesla - in terms of gateways and control from the app?

Good news my main panel is on an outside garage wall flush mount as you suggest. They could easily install the new subpanel in the inside of the garage wall - although it likely would need to be surface mount. Hope this solution will work.

Also by the 120% rule my panel should be able to handle 1.2 x 225 = 270. Let’s assume they downsize the main panel breaker from 200 amps to 150 amps. That would allow for 120 amps coming from solar and batteries. I have 3 batteries (90 amps) and 12.24 kWh of solar (assuming 60 amps). That would push me over - so do you think I would need to ditch one battery to get to 60+60= 120?

 

[Vines]

Agree small business almost always provide better service because of the immediate feedback loop. When you install solar and powerwalls is it essentially identical to what you get from Tesla - in terms of gateways and control from the app?

Good news my main panel is on an outside garage wall flush mount as you suggest. They could easily install the new subpanel in the inside of the garage wall - although it likely would need to be surface mount. Hope this solution will work.

Also by the 120% rule my panel should be able to handle 1.2 x 225 = 270. Let’s assume they downsize the main panel breaker from 200 amps to 150 amps. That would allow for 120 amps coming from solar and batteries. I have 3 batteries (90 amps) and 12.24 kWh of solar (assuming 60 amps). That would push me over - so do you think I would need to ditch one battery to get to 60+60= 120?

Great news then, put a 200A on the bus, remove all other breakers. This is 100% rule compliant. If you wanted to you could backfeed 200A into that service, while maintaining the main breaker at 200A

Run 200A feed to gateway 2 and subpanel inside. land all generation sources inside GW2, land the new 200A subpanel with 200A main breaker just on the other side of the msp and pull the wires into that new backup loads subpanel. Thats it, no service upgrade. 100% rule basically says "Add up all the breakers on the bus by handle rating. If they are equal or less than the bus rating, then the panel is complaint. So with just one single 200A breaker on that 225A bus, you are complaint. Keep your 200A main just as it is. You are basically turning your main panel into a main breaker only panel, and plugging the unused breaker holes in the deadfront.

When you buy a 3rd party Powerwall or Powerwall plus PV system the hardware and user experience you get is either identical or better. If you buy 3-5 Powerwalls there is still some SGIP money left through our shop. Other small shops I hear might even have some SGIP money left for 1-2 Powerwalls.

 

[mnsweeps]

@Vines and other. Tesla got back to me today and said this should be my panel rating.
NEW PANEL INFO:
MAIN BUS - 225A
SERVICE DISCONNECT - 200A

Currently my main breaker and main panel rating are both 200A.

I am going ahead and purchasing Square D Homeline 200 Amp 30-Space 42-Circuit Outdoor Ring-Type Semi-Flush Mount Solar-Ready Main Breaker Plug-On Neutral CSED-SC3042M200PF - The Home Depot ( flush ) or Square D Homeline 200 Amp 30-Space 42-Circuit Outdoor Ring-Type Surface Mount Solar-Ready Main Breaker Plug-On Neutral CSED-SC3042M200PS - The Home Depot (surface)

What do you guys think?

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

I think solar-ready panels/load centers are overhyped. I am on opinion that they severely limit the amount of generation. The solar-ready panels hijack where the sub-feed lugs would go. Sub-feed lugs are essential for Powerwalls. In other words, if you ever install Powerwalls, the solar breakers no longer land on the solar-ready panel.

 

[mnsweeps]

I think solar-ready panels/load centers are overhyped. I am on opinion that they severely limit the amount of generation. The solar-ready panels hijack where the sub-feed lugs would go. Sub-feed lugs are essential for Powerwalls. In other words, if you ever install Powerwalls, the solar breakers no longer land on the solar-ready panel.

I am installing 2 Powerwalls. Which panel would you recommend?

 

[wwhitney]

I am installing 2 Powerwalls. Which panel would you recommend?

Sorry if I missed the info, but making a recommendation would require: a picture of your current service entrance panel and its details; if you have any other panels, a one line diagram of your existing panels; a list of breakers other than 15A and 20A single pole breakers with what loads they supply; and details on how much solar and how many Powerwalls (2) you want to install. Tesla will do a design, we'd just be checking it or offering alternative solutions.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[SoCal Dave]

I am installing 2 Powerwalls. Which panel would you recommend?

If you want to totally future proof your house, install a 400A panel and replace the main breaker with a 200A. So you will have a bus rated for 400A but it won't necessarily force the craziness associated with going to 400A main.

 

[mnsweeps]

Sorry if I missed the info, but making a recommendation would require: a picture of your current service entrance panel and its details; if you have any other panels, a one line diagram of your existing panels; a list of breakers other than 15A and 20A single pole breakers with what loads they supply; and details on how much solar and how many Powerwalls (2) you want to install. Tesla will do a design, we'd just be checking it or offering alternative solutions.

Cheers, Wayne

I only have 1 main panel. Installing 8.16 kwh solar panels, 2 Powerwalls. Tesla recommended any brand of panel for upgrade with 200A main breaker with 225A main bus rating.

 

[wwhitney]

My main suggestion is don't install an "all-in-one" like you currently have. Having your branch circuit breakers in a different enclosure from your service disconnect will make it easier to add a Backup Gateway.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[mnsweeps]

My main suggestion is don't install an "all-in-one" like you currently have. Having your branch circuit breakers in a different enclosure from your service disconnect will make it easier to add a Backup Gateway.

Cheers, Wayne

an example link to such a panel would be appreciated.

 

[CalMdl3]

Great news then, put a 200A on the bus, remove all other breakers. This is 100% rule compliant. If you wanted to you could backfeed 200A into that service, while maintaining the main breaker at 200A

Run 200A feed to gateway 2 and subpanel inside. land all generation sources inside GW2, land the new 200A subpanel with 200A main breaker just on the other side of the msp and pull the wires into that new backup loads subpanel. Thats it, no service upgrade. 100% rule basically says "Add up all the breakers on the bus by handle rating. If they are equal or less than the bus rating, then the panel is complaint. So with just one single 200A breaker on that 225A bus, you are complaint. Keep your 200A main just as it is. You are basically turning your main panel into a main breaker only panel, and plugging the unused breaker holes in the deadfront.

When you buy a 3rd party Powerwall or Powerwall plus PV system the hardware and user experience you get is either identical or better. If you buy 3-5 Powerwalls there is still some SGIP money left through our shop. Other small shops I hear might even have some SGIP money left for 1-2 Powerwalls.

Good news - thanks to the information you and others provided on this thread- Tesla's engineer now agrees with the advice given here and no longer is requiring me to upgrade my current main panel (SC3042M200PF). Woohoo!

But wait there is more- now they are making noise about the location of the MSP, the gas meter and the AC units. My MSP was upgraded and signed off by the City of San Jose in 2017 and the HVAC was just installed in December 2019 and also signed off by the City of San Jose. All work was done with permits and no issues were flagged.

Since all we are doing is stripping the MSP down to one 200 AMP breaker and moving those previous breakers to a new Sub Panel inside the garage wall- why does Tesla even need to worry about an existing exterior meter and AC locations? They are not moving them- wouldn't they be grandfathered as long as Tesla does not move anything? My assumption is that the Tesla Gateway 2, new subpanel and solar inverter would go on the inside garage wall assuming there is space.

Here is the email my coordinator forwarded from the Tesla Engineer and I am including a pic of my current meters and AC condenser location- which is 4 feet from the wall. That metal thing in the picture is the ladder I am standing on to take the picture from above.

from Tesla:
“I’ve done a bit more research on this panel the customer has installed. And we are OK to proceed with a 200A branch breaker. I’ve updated my notes in the case to proceed without an MPU. I’ve updated my spreadsheet on my end, for future reference.

We also have an issue with the gas meter being directly under the main service panel + the a/c units copper piping.

The NEC (Article 110.26) states we must keep the area clear in front of all equipment that may need examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized must have a 30”W x 42”L x 72”H clear and level working space provided.

The customer would be obligated to relocate the a/c units and any piping or other equipment from in front of the main service panels before TESLA’s installation date.

Last, we will need to pipe through the garage into the back of the main service with conduit to avoid gas meter encroachment. We will not be able to install conduit for our equipment on the exterior of home, above the gas meter.

Customer will need to clear the wall behind the main service panel in garage. it’s hard to tell from pics provided and would better be decided by Operations but, its possible the BOS equipment will need to stay in garage or at least partial equipment will need to be in the garage. “

I have no issues with clearing the wall behind the main service panel. But there is nowhere to relocate the AC Condensing units and that would cost a lot anyways- they were just installed in Dec 2019 and the City of San Jose/AHJ signed off?

 

[wwhitney]

The gas meter location is a violation of PG&E's current requirements, so if you ever have to do anything with PG&E that involves replacing the gas meter or the panel, they will likely make you move one or the other. I'm surprised PG&E missed it in 2017.

The gas regulator and A/C refrigerant lines are an NEC violation of the working space rule cited. For the refrigerant lines only, if they are coming out of the house low enough, you could build a wood platform one step above the concrete (7") sized 30" x 36" (or maybe 36" x 36") and just cover them up. But that doesn't help with the gas regulator. Again, it's surprising the inspection in 2019 didn't catch this; that's really not a great place of the A/C units.

Ultimately, the passed inspections don't matter for the current work--an inspection is not a guarantee of compliance. So I can't really blame Tesla if they don't want to work on that panel as is, because the lack of the proper working space in that panel is an actual hazard when working on it. Not sure what to advise you.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[mnsweeps]

CalMdl3, Like wwhitney mentioned above thats a clear violation of NEC code. I know it because a friend of mine went through the same issue but the city inspector caught it.. and he had to redo everything including moving the AC units out. Not sure how your city inspection missed it.

 

[SMAlset]

I’m very surprised to see your setup. No way our city would have approved that AC install location. How old is your home? Is that the original location of the gas meter relative to the service panel? The piping of it makes me wonder if it has been moved, maybe to accommodate the AC unit. And seeing re-stuccoing around the main panel makes me wonder if that too might not be in it’s original location. You said you had a MPU a few years ago. I’d be surprised if other solar installation companies didn’t have issues with this as well.

Codes change over time and new remodeling or construction work can trigger old work to be brought into compliance. Encountered this with our kitchen remodel and to a lesser dollar amount when we re-landscaped and added more electrical and added gas lines to the outside structures. As an aside good to have your homeowner’s insurance cover code updates should you have a loss and rebuild.

 

[BrettS]

On install day my installers told me that they were very concerned that I wouldn’t pass inspection because of the location of the pipes for my irrigation pump. (The house came with the pump installed like this):

I decided to go ahead and move the pump, so I spent a few hours over the weekend doing this:

Of course that was when I naively thought that my inspection was imminent. It turned out that I didn’t get inspected for about 8 weeks after the install. But when I was finally inspected I passed, so hopefully it was worth the effort to move the pipes.

 

[wwhitney]

Not sure what to advise you.

On the A/C units, if you hired a licensed contractor to install them in December 2019, it is incumbent upon them to do a code compliant install. Running the refrigerant lines in front of an electrical panel like that is not compliant with the electrical code, and they should know that. The passed inspection is immaterial. So I'd be looking for the A/C installer to come out and redo everything so as not to violate the working space rule, at no cost to you. If they refuse, I'd file a compliant with the CSLB.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[CalMdl3]

I’m very surprised to see your setup. No way our city would have approved that AC install location. How old is your home? Is that the original location of the gas meter relative to the service panel? The piping of it makes me wonder if it has been moved, maybe to accommodate the AC unit. And seeing re-stuccoing around the main panel makes me wonder if that too might not be in it’s original location. You said you had a MPU a few years ago. I’d be surprised if other solar installation companies didn’t have issues with this as well.

Codes change over time and new remodeling or construction work can trigger old work to be brought into compliance. Encountered this with our kitchen remodel and to a lesser dollar amount when we re-landscaped and added more electrical and added gas lines to the outside structures. As an aside good to have your homeowner’s insurance cover code updates should you have a loss and rebuild.

The home was built in 1982. To my knowledge the gas meter and the electric meter are the original locations (never been moved)- I can see where the main gas line comes up from the concrete slab and it is not offset. I think the piping you see is on the house side where the line splits into service for the house and service for the pool heater. As far as I know, the air conditioning condensers have always been located in this spot. In fact when we updated them in 2019 we moved them away from the wall another foot, hence the 4 feet shown in the pic (previously they were more like 3 feet). The 2017 MPU did require breaking the stucco for access to the wires coming into the side of the old and new panel and the current 2017 installed MSP is taller than the prior MSP which I believe was from 1982 - the service went from 125 to 200 amp/ 225 BUS.

What I am confused about is for the Tesla install - they would only be removing and replacing breakers inside the MSP - not moving it or upgrading it. All the other Tesla equipment would be placed on the inside garage wall (not this location). So I would think the placement of the electric and gas would be grandfathered? I can understand if we were replacing the MSP or gas meter but we are not.

Unfortunately, there is no other good location for those air conditioning condensers or their line set- perhaps they could re-run the line set to follow the white PVC condensate drain along the fence but eventually, they need to cross to connect to the panel. Perhaps if they cross 3' from front of panel that would comply with NEC code?