Paying for public charging?

[JetFalcon]

Did a few road trips to Las Vegas in the Tesla Model 3 and getting used to the EV routine. Its a trip that only requires one supercharging session (assuming you start out with full charge).

But when I get to Vegas, I try my best to charge for free whenever I can. Because seems all the Chargepoints in Las Vegas are free. I try getting a free charge when I can.

But if you have to pay for chargepoint or anything similar, how does it usually work? I did it a few times at a shopping center that says $1 per hour. Do most of them pay for the kwh you use or just the time spent charging? And how do you figure out if paying for public charging is more beneficial than supercharging (time & money wise)?

Gas cars just need to look at the price per gallon and most of them know how much it likely cost them for a full tank. But when a car charges, do EV owners pay for the time or the kwh consumed? What is the price difference for a full charge when: charging at home, public charger, supercharger?

 

[Wennfred]

When it comes to ChargePoint, you need a RFID card or your phone to unlock the adapter from the EVSE. So that means you have an account already. The price of the charge KWh or Minutes is set by the owner of the location and you can view this info on their App. When I owned my Leaf I prefer to use ChaegePoint because they are most reliable compare to the other L2z

Today I don’t bother with any L2 free chargers due to the time it takes especially while traveling. If a free one is available at the hotel I am staying then I might use it, depending on how many. I prefer to leave those open to other EV’s

Fred

 

[Wennfred]

 

[Wennfred]

The only free Tesla wall charger I know of in Las Vegas is located at the MGM right next to the Uber/Lyft area of the parking structure.

 

[holmgang]

download plugshare app.

MOST chargers charge by the unit of energy. some charge on a time-basis. many of them are rough equivalent of supercharging prices.

 

[GLM3]

I use Tesla destination chargers at Malls and Hotels whenever I can. Looks like there are quite a few in the Vegas area. Why not use those instead of ChargePoint?

 

[XLR82XS]

download plugshare app.

MOST chargers charge by the unit of energy. some charge on a time-basis. many of them are rough equivalent of supercharging prices.

I use plugshare to locate L2 charging and wall chargers. It's great and there are some wall chargers around Vegas.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

But if you have to pay for chargepoint or anything similar, how does it usually work? I did it a few times at a shopping center that says $1 per hour. Do most of them pay for the kwh you use or just the time spent charging?

...

Gas cars just need to look at the price per gallon and most of them know how much it likely cost them for a full tank. But when a car charges, do EV owners pay for the time or the kwh consumed?

In many cases, whether to bill the customer by kWh or by minute is made by the charging station owner. However, some states have laws that restrict this. In Texas, for example, only registered public utilities are allowed to bill a customer by the kWh. Thus, all public EV charging stations in Texas bill the customer by the minute, not by the kWh.

As far as computing the price difference between paying for public charging vs. supercharging, I have never seen any public charger, no matter how they're billed, that will beat the superchargers on price, unless the public charger is free. For those public chargers that bill by the kWh, the price is universally higher than what Tesla bills at the superchargers. For the public chargers that bill by the minute, the charging rate is slower (in most cases much slower) than the superchargers, so the amount of time you have to spend at the public charger runs the bill up higher than what the supercharger will cost.

The only time I use a non-supercharger is when destination charging, i.e. staying at a hotel that has a free charger available for guests. Other than that, supercharging wins.

 

[Avid]

I believe the Supercharger charge by kwh rate plus delivery fees, much like what you see on your residential electric bill. So, in that respect it will be cheaper than any other third party charging company.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I believe the Supercharger charge by kwh rate plus delivery fees, much like what you see on your residential electric bill. So, in that respect it will be cheaper than any other third party charging company.

In some states yes, but the restriction in other states applies to Supercharging as well. In Texas, even superchargers are priced by the minute, not by the kWh.

 

[Avid]

In some states yes, but the restriction in other states applies to Supercharging as well. In Texas, even superchargers are priced by the minute, not by the kWh.

Yes, you are correct, I forget, when I've traveled to the Dallas area I stop at Collins Street Bakery. They have free Supercharging and a free coffee.
But I do pay it back by buying something to eat while wait for the charging.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Yes, you are correct, I forget, when I've traveled to the Dallas area I stop at Collins Street Bakery. They have free Supercharging and a free coffee.
But I do pay it back by buying something to eat while wait for the charging.

Collins Street Bakery is really nice ... free coffee for the Tesla drivers, excellent cookies & treats, and you can get a good ham or turkey sandwich or wrap. The superchargers in Corsicana, Waco, and Lindale are all at a Collins Street Bakery. There's probably others that I haven't been to.

 

[Gasaraki]

Charging people by time plugged in is the stupidest thing ever and a big ripoff for EVs since the charge rate changes based on so many different situations. Type of car, temperature of car, temperature of charging station, outside temperature, state of charge of car, cars plugged in next to me, issues with charging station, etc, etc, etc. I am paying for a resource and should be paying for the amount of said resource i'm taking, not the time it takes me to get it.

It's like Steam charging me $100 for a game just because my internet connection is slow and it took me 5 hours to download it vs. someone taking 1 hour and getting charged $20 for the same game.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Charging people by time plugged in is the stupidest thing ever and a big ripoff for EVs since the charge rate changes based on so many different situations. Type of car, temperature of car, temperature of charging station, outside temperature, state of charge of car, cars plugged in next to me, issues with charging station, etc, etc, etc. I am paying for a resource and should be paying for the amount of said resource i'm taking, not the time it takes me to get it.

Tesla somewhat compensates for this because there are actually two different per-minute rates for the supercharger. There is a "high rate" that is in effect when the charge rate is above 60 kW, and a "low rate" that goes into effect when the charge rate falls below 60 kW. In Texas, the high rate (Tesla calls it the tier 2 rate) is 26¢/min, and the low rate (tier 1 rate) is 13¢/min.

For the tier 2 rate of 26¢/min, this works out to 11.6¢/kWh when a car is charging at 135 kW, which is what you would get early in the charge on a Model 3 with a low battery. The cost per kWh increases as the charge rate goes down, rising to 26¢/kWh as the charge rate hits 60 kW, but then jumps down to 13¢/kWh as the tier 1 rate kicks in.

See the following post I made a while back that analyzed the supercharger cost. Overall cost for a long charge (in ¢/kWh) is close to 1.33 * the tier 1 rate in ¢/min. (Note that this post was made a while back when Texas rates were 16¢/min tier 2 and 8¢/min tier 1, but the analysis is the same).

Supercharging prices at last

Edit: Corrected pricing errors and tier labeling errors.

 

[camalaio]

I think you're asking in general and not just for California, so I'll answer as such.

It really varies a lot:

• Free, no authorization: Simply plug in, maybe hit a start button to begin your charge.
• Free, authorization required: An account and/or physical card for the charge network is needed. Not every station uses every method, but the most popular are: RFID card (tap), NFC via smartphone app (tap), remote enablevia smartphone app (requires internet access), or phone call with station ID (requires phone signal). Occasionally, they can be enabled with a credit card as well (though no fee is charged).
• Pay, by minute/hour: Charge by some rounded amount of time. Sometimes includes a flat session fee as well. Uses authorization methods above, using online-funded accounts via the charge network accounts. Sometimes the rate changes depending on the amount of power being drawn to make it more fair (for example, see Electrify America's pricing). Often this method is used due to local laws on resale of utilities (in this case, electricity).
• Pay, by kWh: Same as above, but "more fairly" charges by the amount of energy dispensed.

The only thing I've never seen anywhere is paying by credit card. This really needs to be a thing (had to incur roaming charges in the US just to start a charge and give them my credit card info, bah!)

Places without any sort of nearby connectivity are often completely free, as the authorization methods require internet access or phone calls.

Now, figuring out how "worth it" it is depends on the pricing structure. Per-time pricing is difficult but common currently. The actual power draw changes how "worth it" the charger is.

I will give examples on how I calculate this. The goal is to speak in $/kWh, even if the price is $/minute.

• Nearby Level 2 J-1772 station (using Tesla adapter)
  • 208V, 30A (6656W theoretical), net power to Model 3 approximately (6656 - 300)*0.94 = roughly 6.0kW
  • $9/hour
  • $/kWh price = $/hour divided by kW = $9 / 6kW = $1.50/kWh.
• Another nearby Level 2 J-1772 station
  • Same powers as above
  • $2.50/hour
  • $/kWh price = $/hour divided by kW = $2.50 / 6kW = $0.417/kWh.
• At-home Level 2 via Tesla UMC
  • 235V, 24A (5640W theorectical), net power (5640-300)*0.94 = roughly 5.0kW (5020W)
  • $/kWh = $0.12 average (based on my bill)

For Level 3 DC Fast Charging,

• Nearby Level 3 CHAdeMO station (using Tesla adapter)
  • "50kW" station, Model 3 average power into battery is about 41kW in my case
  • $18/hour
  • $/kWh = $18/hour / 41kW = $0.439/kWh
• Tesla "Urban Supercharger"
  • From billing history and measurements: $20.64 for about 49kWh delivered
  • Power Tier 1 (<60kW gross) - 10 min @ $0.24/min - $2.40 (average power into battery ~55kW)
  • Power Tier 2 (>60kW gross) - 38 min @ $0.48/min - $18.24 (average power into battery ~63kW)
  • Tax included $2.21
  • $/kWh = $20.64 / 40 = $0.421/kWh
• Tesla "V2" Supercharger
  • Just take my word that this is cheaper than Urban ones by a lot - pricing per minute is often the same, but as long as you arrive with a hot battery at low percentage, you'll pull more power while paying the same-ish tier price!

Takeaways:

• Calculate Level 2 stations compared to your home. In my case it's 3-4x my home price for common non-free stations, but some serious ripoffs exist (like the first example).
• Common non-free Level 2 around me are basically the same $/kWh as third-party Level 3 (CHAdeMO) or Tesla Urban Superchargers (the slow ones). Basically a reasonable "convenience" price, but otherwise not good.
• Tesla V2 or V3 Superchargers are often the cheapest non-home charging, but still absolutely more expensive than charging at home.
• My local fact: Anything above the $0.4xx/kWh costs above starts making gas prices look like a reasonable alternative from a purely dollar cost per distance perspective, with an "efficient" vehicle.

EDIT: I realise I did the costs wrong relative to the efficiency, not factoring in the charging efficiency even though I calculated it. Gah. Just treat them as accurate +-10%, sorry.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

The only thing I've never seen anywhere is paying by credit card. This really needs to be a thing (had to incur roaming charges in the US just to start a charge and give them my credit card info, bah!)

Since almost all public chargers are unattended and isolated, there is too much risk for the company to install a credit card reader, because it becomes a target for a thief to install a skimmer.

Also, since the average sale is small (generally less than $10), the credit card transaction fees take a big cut of profits. Adding funds to the company's phone app and then using the banked funds let's them reduce the number of credit card transactions and cut down on the fees.

 

[TLCTimFL]

I've used ChargePoint quite a bit since that seems to be what's available on Disney property in Orlando and nearby in and around the west coast of FL. I've also found them at businesses and hotels. We even have a free charger station at a mall in Sarasota. ChargePoint is really easy to use. Download their app and setup an account. You will need to have the adapter that came with your car. Once at the charger, hold your phone up to the charger and you'll see the charger activate. Open your port. Disconnect the charger cable, add the adapter and plug it in to the port. It's really simple! I keep the adapter in my trunk. The app will keep you informed as to the level of charging. The biggest issue I've found with these is getting "iced!" I hate it when an internal combustion engine car hogs the space. I have a midrange M3 and usually pay $10 or so to charge.

 

[smatthew]

In many cases, whether to bill the customer by kWh or by minute is made by the charging station owner. However, some states have laws that restrict this. In Texas, for example, only registered public utilities are allowed to bill a customer by the kWh. Thus, all public EV charging stations in Texas bill the customer by the minute, not by the kWh.

As far as computing the price difference between paying for public charging vs. supercharging, I have never seen any public charger, no matter how they're billed, that will beat the superchargers on price, unless the public charger is free. For those public chargers that bill by the kWh, the price is universally higher than what Tesla bills at the superchargers. For the public chargers that bill by the minute, the charging rate is slower (in most cases much slower) than the superchargers, so the amount of time you have to spend at the public charger runs the bill up higher than what the supercharger will cost.

The only time I use a non-supercharger is when destination charging, i.e. staying at a hotel that has a free charger available for guests. Other than that, supercharging wins.

Ahhh, let me introduce you to the Webasto Network. Only in the Pacific Northwest. L2 charges are 4.00 CHAdeMO Charges are 7.50. OR, they have a $20 monthly subscription.

To be totally honest, these are the only CHAdeMO chargers I use. Most superchargers charge about $0.28/kw. So, if you get 27 or more kWh on that $7.50 CHAdeMO charge, your per kWh cost is lower than the supercharger. Last time I used one I got 50kWh, so my per kWh cost was $0.15. And no, it didn't take any additional time. There was a huge line at the supercharger, so on that date, CHAdeMO saved me a few bucks, and a few minutes. Plus I got to walk my dog!

 

[qingshan]

I believe the Supercharger charge by kwh rate plus delivery fees, much like what you see on your residential electric bill. So, in that respect it will be cheaper than any other third party charging company.

Tesla's charges are almost always cheaper than 3d party except for free L2's and a few that are subsidized. Third party wants money, Tesla wants to make their cars more desirable. Cheaper yet is home on a tiered plan but then your home and not on the road.

 

[JetFalcon]

The only free Tesla wall charger I know of in Las Vegas is located at the MGM right next to the Uber/Lyft area of the parking structure.

There are Tesla specific one at the Harrahs parking garage. But so many ICE vehicles park in those spots, there is no EV only sign deterring them and hotel won't enforce it. They really need paint that area green and say EV only (tow away) because these ICE vehicles are willing to park there, but not in the Diamond members only parking.

Then there is the supercharging station next to LINQ High Roller (Ferris wheel). It has free wall connectors if you got time, like if you ride the High Roller or shop / dine at the shopping center. I was around 35-40%, it said 5 hours for full charge, so had to supercharge the minimum to make it to Yermo CA (on way back to Lake Forest CA).