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PCN at supercharger Kings Lynn despite reasonable efforts

Zakalwe

Member
Oct 16, 2020
412
373
UK
This is the sign in the middle of the superchargers


14BABEDD-86AC-4330-AD7E-158808A6DB64.jpeg

A8C3C1A3-9575-4FA9-9D64-2E31F583F89B.jpeg
I reckon that you'd win that at a POPLA appeal for insufficient signage.


Keep badgering the hotel manager first though...they are the ones employing the parking firm. Get the CEOs name and batter him/her on Twitter and LinkedIn. Getting the hotel to cancel is the easier route, though make sure to keep proof as some parking firms have been known to issue proceedings even when the hotel have cancelled the invoice.
 
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FlyingHappily

Member
Jul 9, 2020
15
32
London
This is the sign in the middle of the superchargers


14BABEDD-86AC-4330-AD7E-158808A6DB64.jpeg

A8C3C1A3-9575-4FA9-9D64-2E31F583F89B.jpeg
That sign is either photoshopped on, or has just been erected. I parked in the bay adjacent to that wood structure, and three of us wandered around looking for any signs.

But, it also does not help me in the least. I was neither a guest of nor a visitor to this hotel. I honestly thought this was somewhere I could charge enroute. I didn’t even choose the location, this is where the car specially sent me in order to charge up.

If anything erecting this sign is worse. At least I may have a case not to pay the £100 as there was no signage at all. Now there is a sign but it is totally unclear what this means. I think from reading it that the facility is only available for hotel guests and visitors. So it needs to be taken off the map and off the car navigation, or it is just a sort of trap.

Quite apart from anything else, that sign is inside beyond the cameras. By the time you reach it and decipher the small print to learn that only hotel visitors and guests can use the chargers without a £100 fine, it’s too late and the fine has been issued. What they need is, a sign at the entrance saying this is not a supercharger for public use, or perhaps a gate so people aren’t tricked into it.
 
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FlyingHappily

Member
Jul 9, 2020
15
32
London
OK, not going so well now. Hotel desk now say they aren't authorised to cancel the fine though they did confirm they are the owner of the land. (Tesla says the fines are issued by the owner of the land and not Tesla.)

So this site is private and not intended for public use at all, with charging bays according to that sign, only available for visitors and guests of the 'Dragonfly hotel' - the hotel desk man says that anyone and everyone who visits and isn't staying at the hotel receives a fine just for driving onto the land and that for example if anyone is dropped off at the hotel by taxi the taxi will receive a fine, and also that if anyone orders a pizza delivery to the hotel, the delivery driver will receive a fine. So, the hotel isn't actually accessible by anyone not staying there or visiting, under any circumstances, not even for drop offs, pick ups, and definitely not for the charging bays.

He is unable to overturn these fines and is not authorised to do so. He has given me an email address for the manager of the hotel but I don't think this will work, as @NorfolkMustard's sign only shows options for hotel visitors or guests. I was neither a hotel visitor nor a hotel guest, and had no business being at the hotel at all. I was only at the site as I genuinely believed it to be a supercharger available to any Tesla driver rather than a private one - I didn't choose to go there by my own planning, this is where the car itself directed me.

@NorfolkMustard Did you receive a fine when visiting to take the photo? Or were you a hotel guest or visitor at the time?
 
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browellm

Member
Oct 4, 2019
448
402
Notts
OK, not going so well now. Hotel desk now say they aren't authorised to cancel the fine though they did confirm they are the owner of the land. (Tesla says the fines are issued by the owner of the land and not Tesla.)

So this site is private and not intended for public use at all, with charging bays according to that sign, only available for visitors and guests of the 'Dragonfly hotel' - the hotel desk man says that anyone and everyone who visits and isn't staying at the hotel receives a fine just for driving onto the land and that for example if anyone is dropped off at the hotel by taxi the taxi will receive a fine, and also that if anyone orders a pizza delivery to the hotel, the delivery driver will receive a fine. So, the hotel isn't actually accessible by anyone not staying there or visiting, under any circumstances, not even for drop offs, pick ups, and definitely not for the charging bays.

He is unable to overturn these fines and is not authorised to do so. He has given me an email address for the manager of the hotel but I don't think this will work, as @NorfolkMustard's sign only shows options for hotel visitors or guests. I was neither a hotel visitor nor a hotel guest, and had no business being at the hotel at all. I was only at the site as I genuinely believed it to be a supercharger available to any Tesla driver rather than a private one - I didn't choose to go there by my own planning, this is where the car itself directed me.

@NorfolkMustard Did you receive a fine when visiting to take the photo? Or were you a hotel guest or visitor at the time?
WTAF?!
 

Mrklaw

Member
Mar 5, 2020
310
164
Berkshire
I would guess there is a window for taxis etc eg 10-15 mins and anything longer is considered a ‘stay’

regardless - the car is taking you there, there should be no PCN (it’s not a PCN I think, they just call them that to make them sound official).

probably won’t do anything but try raising with EV news sites, tweet Elon and ask why his car SW is telling people to visit locations where they will be fined
 
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FlyingHappily

Member
Jul 9, 2020
15
32
London
I would guess there is a window for taxis etc eg 10-15 mins and anything longer is considered a ‘stay’

regardless - the car is taking you there, there should be no PCN (it’s not a PCN I think, they just call them that to make them sound official).

probably won’t do anything but try raising with EV news sites, tweet Elon and ask why his car SW is telling people to visit locations where they will be fined

I agree that it's not an actual PCN but they head it Penalty Charge Notice and refer to it as a "PCN" in their own letter. I feel like I should really put it in quotes each time. I also don't like their misleading name of 'Civil Enforcement Ltd' as I am convinced the hotel reception fellow was labouring under the misapprehension that a 'PCN from civil enforcement' is a legal instrument or police matter or council matter of some sort, and not just a constructed thing cooked up by their own hotel and a document-processing legal outfit.

Sadly, my time isn't worth the fight so if the manager refuses to undo it (which I think they will, as I was neither a hotel visitor nor guest), I will just have to pay it rather than sending some tweets. I am often away for a couple of months, I daren't fight anything like this lest I come back and find I've missed court papers and got a CCJ or something.

Definitely worst experience of ownership so far. I just don't understand the purpose of the setup or why Tesla have agreed to install a supercharger on land that can't be accessed legally, and worse, why it's been added to the navigation as if anyone can use it. It even charged me the money for the supercharging. I genuinely wasn't intending to use someone's private charger. I literally thought this was just one of the ones, where everyone is allowed to use it and there might be some specific Tesla instruction or pin code or authorisation system or approval system. There was neither and no signs about the supercharger at all - just signs for hotel guests parking in the car park. Nothing on the navigation screen and now it's just "pay £100 or go to court". Depressing but also totally pointless process. I lose £100, but I can't see what anyone gains or what the purpose of the exercise is for Tesla, the landowner (whoever they may be), or the hotel. There is literally no winner.
 

Billbrown1982

TM3 LR 2021 | Red | FSD
Dec 21, 2020
361
186
Basildon
POPLA are pointless. It's a body setup, funded, and controlled by the parking vulture industry. You will not get a fair appeal.

Couldn't disagree more. I've had 3 tickets overturned thanks to POPLA - Two were totaly unfair but in all honesty, 1 they had me bang to rights and I was being lazy at 2am parking in one of the 10 empty parent and child spots and got a ticket. Still overturned due to a technicality.

I agree that it's not an actual PCN but they head it Penalty Charge Notice and refer to it as a "PCN" in their own letter. I feel like I should really put it in quotes each time. I also don't like their misleading name of 'Civil Enforcement Ltd' as I am convinced the hotel reception fellow was labouring under the misapprehension that a 'PCN from civil enforcement' is a legal instrument or police matter or council matter of some sort, and not just a constructed thing cooked up by their own hotel and a document-processing legal outfit.

Sadly, my time isn't worth the fight so if the manager refuses to undo it (which I think they will, as I was neither a hotel visitor nor guest), I will just have to pay it rather than sending some tweets. I am often away for a couple of months, I daren't fight anything like this lest I come back and find I've missed court papers and got a CCJ or something.

Definitely worst experience of ownership so far. I just don't understand the purpose of the setup or why Tesla have agreed to install a supercharger on land that can't be accessed legally, and worse, why it's been added to the navigation as if anyone can use it. It even charged me the money for the supercharging. I genuinely wasn't intending to use someone's private charger. I literally thought this was just one of the ones, where everyone is allowed to use it and there might be some specific Tesla instruction or pin code or authorisation system or approval system. There was neither and no signs about the supercharger at all - just signs for hotel guests parking in the car park. Nothing on the navigation screen and now it's just "pay £100 or go to court". Depressing but also totally pointless process. I lose £100, but I can't see what anyone gains or what the purpose of the exercise is for Tesla, the landowner (whoever they may be), or the hotel. There is literally no winner.

Understand where you are coming from but I would STRONGLY recommend you appeal it. Its a relatively simple process and can be carried out online, all via email, so if it doesn't go your way, you just pay the fine then and move on with your life. These vultures should not be allowed to carry on like this when you have done everything that is "reasonable"

Prime example. The law states that they MUST allow a reasonable time, for example for you to drive into a car park, not find any spaces available and then leave - without a penalty. So if these guys are actually issuing fines to taxi drivers and food delivery guys then they are proper taking the piss and the hotel itself needs to take some responsibility for allowing this to happen.

They also cannot enforce a parking notice if they don't have a proof of land authority and I would be stunned if they have that for the bit where the super chargers are located, otherwise Tesla would not be able to do ANYTHING there without a lengthy process each and every time work needed carrying out.

Once the appeal process has started they cannot issue you a CCJ or anything like that.
 
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Mrklaw

Member
Mar 5, 2020
310
164
Berkshire
I wonder if there is a case to sue these kinds of people on the grounds they claim to be PCNs or otherwise official fines which can confuse and cause distress to people through deception? That’s separate from the frankly nonsensical setup Tesla have found themselves in for superchargers on private property
 

NewbieT

Active Member
Aug 16, 2019
1,030
628
North West
Won’t Tesla be leasing the land and therefore that section of the car park belongs to Tesla and falls outside of any other rules?
It’s not necessarily a lease. Could be a license to occupy or other agreement. Would be interesting to know the terms.

The lack of signage means the charge is unenforceable but will be a hassle to sort out. If they get more signs I guess we could all live with typing in our registration but what about when reception is locked.

Tesla really should get some signs and negotiate better so that Tesla vehicles get an automatic 1h waiver.
 

pgkevet

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
1,236
1,084
mid wales
OK, not going so well now. Hotel desk now say they aren't authorised to cancel the fine though they did confirm they are the owner of the land. (Tesla says the fines are issued by the owner of the land and not Tesla.)

So this site is private and not intended for public use at all, with charging bays according to that sign, only available for visitors and guests of the 'Dragonfly hotel' - the hotel desk man says that anyone and everyone who visits and isn't staying at the hotel receives a fine just for driving onto the land and that for example if anyone is dropped off at the hotel by taxi the taxi will receive a fine, and also that if anyone orders a pizza delivery to the hotel, the delivery driver will receive a fine. So, the hotel isn't actually accessible by anyone not staying there or visiting, under any circumstances, not even for drop offs, pick ups, and definitely not for the charging bays.

He is unable to overturn these fines and is not authorised to do so. He has given me an email address for the manager of the hotel but I don't think this will work, as @NorfolkMustard's sign only shows options for hotel visitors or guests. I was neither a hotel visitor nor a hotel guest, and had no business being at the hotel at all. I was only at the site as I genuinely believed it to be a supercharger available to any Tesla driver rather than a private one - I didn't choose to go there by my own planning, this is where the car itself directed me.

@NorfolkMustard Did you receive a fine when visiting to take the photo? Or were you a hotel guest or visitor at the time?
The above is absurd. The suggestion that any hotel would fine a taxi driver for dropping off guests is patently daft. Dragonfly has a website and it shows that the chain is part of Surya Hotels whose own website gves head office details etc.
In your position i would write (not emails) to the hotel, the group head office (copied to the board), the parking company and Tesla - one all detailed letter copied to each and sent recorded deliveries explaining the poor signage and impossibility of accessing reception during lockdown etc and your willingness to deal with the matter through the courts - which would only be a copy of the above letter plus a copy of your Tesla charge receipt. Tesla don't provide hotels with private superchargers.. they would only provide private a/c chargers. If you have time to ppst eher then you have time to knock up one letter, print the half dozen copies and address a few envelopes. The worst case is that a court finds against you and you do pay - but it won't happen.
 

FlyingHappily

Member
Jul 9, 2020
15
32
London
The above is absurd. The suggestion that any hotel would fine a taxi driver for dropping off guests is patently daft.

I may not have explained this properly. This was not my suggestion. This is the hotel’s own statement. They also said that they fine pizza delivery drivers if a guest at the hotel happens to order a pizza. I agree that this is absurd and don’t see how either of these facts helps in the slightest.
 
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Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,775
1,405
Norfolk
I’m due in Kings Lynn for my jab tomorrow and was going to have at look.
What a complete absurdity.
First point. Such a case is clear In law if no warning sign is present at the entry point, any legal action or the issue of a fine will not stand up in court. Been there, won it!
Second point. Tesla show these as public SC’s not destination chargers. They should take responsibility and act against the hotel group.
I would certainly flag this up to the Eastern Daily Press. They love stamping on thing like this.
 

Zakalwe

Member
Oct 16, 2020
412
373
UK
OK, not going so well now. Hotel desk now say they aren't authorised to cancel the fine though they did confirm they are the owner of the land. (Tesla says the fines are issued by the owner of the land and not Tesla.)

So this site is private and not intended for public use at all, with charging bays according to that sign, only available for visitors and guests of the 'Dragonfly hotel' - the hotel desk man says that anyone and everyone who visits and isn't staying at the hotel receives a fine just for driving onto the land and that for example if anyone is dropped off at the hotel by taxi the taxi will receive a fine, and also that if anyone orders a pizza delivery to the hotel, the delivery driver will receive a fine. So, the hotel isn't actually accessible by anyone not staying there or visiting, under any circumstances, not even for drop offs, pick ups, and definitely not for the charging bays.

He is unable to overturn these fines and is not authorised to do so. He has given me an email address for the manager of the hotel but I don't think this will work, as @NorfolkMustard's sign only shows options for hotel visitors or guests. I was neither a hotel visitor nor a hotel guest, and had no business being at the hotel at all. I was only at the site as I genuinely believed it to be a supercharger available to any Tesla driver rather than a private one - I didn't choose to go there by my own planning, this is where the car itself directed me.

@NorfolkMustard Did you receive a fine when visiting to take the photo? Or were you a hotel guest or visitor at the time?
The hotel is incorrect.
They have contracted the PPC to monitor the carpark. They have the absolute authority to instruct their contracted partner to cancel a ticket.
Find the CEOs details and start a Twitter and email campaign (this has worked really well with Morrison' s supermarket carparks).
Get on the Money saving expert forum and follow the Newbies thread exactly, otherwise you may find yourself with a court action.
 

Zakalwe

Member
Oct 16, 2020
412
373
UK
I wonder if there is a case to sue these kinds of people on the grounds they claim to be PCNs or otherwise official fines which can confuse and cause distress to people through deception? That’s separate from the frankly nonsensical setup Tesla have found themselves in for superchargers on private property
The time for that passed years ago. Yes the invoices are dressed to look like fines, but the wording only mention "charges". No private company has the legal right to issue a fine.

There is a proven way of mounting a defence against these companies and it is clearly documented in the Money Saving Expert forum in the parking section.
 
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pgkevet

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
1,236
1,084
mid wales
I may not have explained this properly. This was not my suggestion. This is the hotel’s own statement. They also said that they fine pizza delivery drivers if a guest at the hotel happens to order a pizza. I agree that this is absurd and don’t see how either of these facts helps in the slightest.
I realised that. It means that whoever you spoke to is an untrained monkey or their orders were badly written and misinterpreted - hence my siggestions. There is no point in going just to their boss since he likely wrote those orders - you need to write to the whole chain of clowns running those hotels - Yeah and throw in the local papers, tourist board, business etc - It's just one letter copied to all those addresses and a little nuisance time in the post office.
 

VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,735
5,194
Surrey, UK
That sign is either photoshopped on, or has just been erected. I parked in the bay adjacent to that wood structure, and three of us wandered around looking for any signs.

Any chance that you may TeslaCam footage of that visit, or anyone else who recently visited? If the sign wasn't there for your visit, but was then put up as a result of your enquiry, then imho it will add weight to your position.
 

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