Exactly. Look to the other side of the Atlantic if you want to lose a bit more faith in humanity... Can't be long before we see one doing that here...
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PCN in electric car bay
- Thread starter Doudeau
- Start date
With regard to the comment that parking companies have had years to perfect their wording - that's so true and they still get it wrong sometimes, like the double yellow lines on roads (donkeys years to perfect) - if they are not terminated with the double slash at the end then they are not enforceable - even if the ends have been worn out by traffic - and so many councils don't maintain the lines.
These private parking firms have to abide by a code of practise and any breach to adherence results in a sure case to loose any court hearing (The law is technical and devoid of emotion) The signage to the public has to be easily understood and clear - they cant deviate from their own code either.
You will find that with pretty much every company by using its terms of practice or conduct against them to demonstrate they failed to follow their own rules will result in them backing down.
The most common failure is right at the very start of issuing their first letter to you - Its sent by normal post - not recorded - therefore they cant prove receipt - they may be able to prove certificate of posting but they must prove you received it. This first letter is important as they must offer you a reduced charge if paid within 28 days (sometimes 14) If you simply ignore this letter they cant prove you received an offer of reduced payment - and that is a contravention of their code. They have to send recorded delivery and have a signature to prove you were offered the reduced payment charge.
No recorded delivery then ignore everything up to the pre action letter - and that's your defence in a court that the first notice you received was only for the full charge and that they breached their own code. So you don't acknowledge their first letter or try their appeal system. result court dismissal.
A CCJ is only imposed if a court has deemed you were in breach of contract, the fine imposed by the court remains unpaid after 28 days - if you pay by day 28 there is no CCJ.
The code of practice is a big document (British Parking Association guide to members is 55 pages) and like most documents the bigger the better from a defence point of view, they write more there is more to challenge - and you only need one point not abided by to get the case dismissed.
The signage on the car park must not only be perfectly clear its important where its erected - it has to be prior to entering the car park - so if you don't wish to enter a contract you can chose not to enter - usually they are within the car park and therefore they have to have a grace period whereby you can leave the car park within that time to reject the contract. If its time limited before a fine imposed like many shopping centres do then dash cam footage is good as it will show available places to park and reduce any possible "damages" the company claim for the breach of contract. Breach of contract damages must reflect presumptive losses the company suffered by you overstaying - so an empty car park they couldn't claim they suffered a loss at all.
Some parking companies have been mauled by the courts so often they rarely take anyone to court (ECP) - they simply send lots of letters in their name, then their other company "Debt recovery plus" - and finally a collection agency "Zenith Collections" all from the same postal address. then they do diddly squat except the occasional letter every 12 months for a couple of years hoping you will pay them.
95% of all "fines" will be paid by the driver within the first 6 months, few are prepared to go to court - and some companies just wont go there at all as it costs far too much for such a small amount of money.
Fines imposed by a court if they find against you rarely exceed the original amount asked for by the parking company so why not let them work for their money and let them take a chance on loosing in court. All it needs is for you to read the entire BPA document and find their errors - and there will be some.
I wanted the company to take me to court (looking forward to it) as i found so many errors in their compliance to their code - including not receiving the first offer letter but they didn't and now they are out of time
These private parking firms have to abide by a code of practise and any breach to adherence results in a sure case to loose any court hearing (The law is technical and devoid of emotion) The signage to the public has to be easily understood and clear - they cant deviate from their own code either.
You will find that with pretty much every company by using its terms of practice or conduct against them to demonstrate they failed to follow their own rules will result in them backing down.
The most common failure is right at the very start of issuing their first letter to you - Its sent by normal post - not recorded - therefore they cant prove receipt - they may be able to prove certificate of posting but they must prove you received it. This first letter is important as they must offer you a reduced charge if paid within 28 days (sometimes 14) If you simply ignore this letter they cant prove you received an offer of reduced payment - and that is a contravention of their code. They have to send recorded delivery and have a signature to prove you were offered the reduced payment charge.
No recorded delivery then ignore everything up to the pre action letter - and that's your defence in a court that the first notice you received was only for the full charge and that they breached their own code. So you don't acknowledge their first letter or try their appeal system. result court dismissal.
A CCJ is only imposed if a court has deemed you were in breach of contract, the fine imposed by the court remains unpaid after 28 days - if you pay by day 28 there is no CCJ.
The code of practice is a big document (British Parking Association guide to members is 55 pages) and like most documents the bigger the better from a defence point of view, they write more there is more to challenge - and you only need one point not abided by to get the case dismissed.
The signage on the car park must not only be perfectly clear its important where its erected - it has to be prior to entering the car park - so if you don't wish to enter a contract you can chose not to enter - usually they are within the car park and therefore they have to have a grace period whereby you can leave the car park within that time to reject the contract. If its time limited before a fine imposed like many shopping centres do then dash cam footage is good as it will show available places to park and reduce any possible "damages" the company claim for the breach of contract. Breach of contract damages must reflect presumptive losses the company suffered by you overstaying - so an empty car park they couldn't claim they suffered a loss at all.
Some parking companies have been mauled by the courts so often they rarely take anyone to court (ECP) - they simply send lots of letters in their name, then their other company "Debt recovery plus" - and finally a collection agency "Zenith Collections" all from the same postal address. then they do diddly squat except the occasional letter every 12 months for a couple of years hoping you will pay them.
95% of all "fines" will be paid by the driver within the first 6 months, few are prepared to go to court - and some companies just wont go there at all as it costs far too much for such a small amount of money.
Fines imposed by a court if they find against you rarely exceed the original amount asked for by the parking company so why not let them work for their money and let them take a chance on loosing in court. All it needs is for you to read the entire BPA document and find their errors - and there will be some.
I wanted the company to take me to court (looking forward to it) as i found so many errors in their compliance to their code - including not receiving the first offer letter but they didn't and now they are out of time
ACarneiro
Active Member
Nick77
Deep Blue Model 3 LR (2021 MIC)
So are you suggesting that any initial letter for a parking fine can be ignored unless it has some kind of tracking or recorded delivery?
You can get a certificate of posting without it being tracked to show you posted it.
the point made though was regardless of having proof you posted it there is no proof it arrived.
"Pay up" is my humble opinion. Your car was parking in an EV parking space without charging.
I don't think there's any point arguing the matter on a technicality. While private parking companies are dodgy shysters they're also there to stop people blocking disabled spaces etc. I can't imagine you'd complain if the owner of an ICE vehicle got a ticket for parking in a charging space.
I don't think there's any point arguing the matter on a technicality. While private parking companies are dodgy shysters they're also there to stop people blocking disabled spaces etc. I can't imagine you'd complain if the owner of an ICE vehicle got a ticket for parking in a charging space.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Mine too ...
... but if the wording on the sign is ambiguous about whether that bay is available for general use "out of hours" (or "Restricted during normal hours" / whatever) ?
I don't have an opinion on whether that is the case, in this case, but just making the point that signage needs to be accurate, and where not challenging it seems to be the only modern way to get it fixed.
Absolutely. The company must offer you a reduced payment for early settlement - and as this offer is part of the conditions then they have to be able to prove you received that offer and if they cant then they have breached their own terms and conditions. Your defence obviously is that you never received the first letter - not that you received it but ignored it because it wasn't sent by recorded delivery.
Proof of posting isn't proof of receipt.
Paying up is an option, but getting off on a technicality to me is perfectly legitimate - its how the law works and we have very wealthy barristers and solicitors that use every single loophole to create doubt or challenge validity. In my view its so rewarding getting off on a technicality knowing you have stuffed these car park sharks right up the jacksy and cost them dearly for taking the case to court - plus claiming expenses from them to cover your "reasonable costs" in defending the case (Time, fuel, cost for reproducing photographic evidence, time off work etc)
You would think (as was previously commented on) that these parking companies would learn lessons and send recorded delivery letters - but they don't because it costs a few pence more to do - and most people just pay anyway. In my view I helping them to get better at their job if they could be bothered to learn, but they make so many mistakes and don't learn simply because people don't like to challenge these companies - a bit like David and Goliath so they do little to skill their minimum pay staff - who have little interest in what their doing anyway.
You also have to remember - those shops that contract out car park management to a private company are the ones responsible for the fines in the first place, they say - or believe, managing the car park will bring them more business if they impose a time limit on parking because people will just go to another store for their purchases if they cant find a car park place - what they don't appreciate is by setting a short time period before your in breach of the car park conditions makes shopping somewhat stressful as you wander the shop but looking at your watch, most shopping centres have more spaces available than they would ever have customers in their shops for most of the time - so why not be pro-active if you can and shop only at those shops that don't limit the time you can park - or better still just go online, get a better price and delivered to your door and let these shops go out of business - along with the car park management firms.
Absolutely. I second that. I once had a £85 fine at a supermarket car park, for basically taking too long to spend my money with them on a large grocery shop for a party (£200), but I also was a weekly regular.
I believe they had small signs in the lot that no one reads limiting parking for 1h / 1h30. Overstayed by a few minutes and got caught by ANPR.
I was livid, because technically, I did break their self-proclaimed parking regulations, but on the other hand it was quite unfair and completely ridiculous.
Long story short, went on to see the store manager, they called the enforcement company they contract out to, and they waived the 'fine'.
I was happy with the resolution, but they haven't seen me since and I now shop with their competitors across the street because I was still put off by the experience (and because they offer more free EV charging bays across the street too
).So a good case of how stupid parking enforcement can make a business lose customers. Would have been better for them to come up with a form of parking validation upon checkout rather than imposing arbitrarily short stay durations.
Wol747
Active Member
I’m opening up to be flamed on behalf of my daughter again but, as the thread hasn’t died I thought I’d explain the reason I paid. My daughter checked out the signage above the spaces this week and it does say “electric vehicle recharging point” (as apposed to “EV cars only” or similar).
If I wanted to try my luck, and I might have done for a £200+ fine, I might have tried to contend that there is nothing explicit to say this rule is applicable 24/7 where the car park restrictions are working hours only. As I’m also against people parking in charging bays whilst not charging I morally decided to pay up.
Based on some of the feedback, and tempting criticism again, I’d be interested to hear how you would treat the situation where there are EV spaces in hotel car parks. I recently stayed at a Holiday Inn in Dijon which had Tesla destination charging and fortunately 1 of the 3 spaces was free when I arrived circa 11pm. A sign at the spaces says to remove the car once yours is fully charged. I checked with reception and asked if I was expected to move the car at 5am when I was likely to be charged up. She said not to bother as it wasn’t an issue as they weren’t expecting any more guests that night. Before breakfast I moved the car (whilst noting a hybrid was still plugged in overnight!).
For those most angry at my daughters mistake, would you (1) not use the space as you wouldn’t want to move the car immediately when it’s fully charged, (2) set an alarm at 5am and move it, (3) not use the space initially but get up at 3am to move into the space so the car is fully charged for when you’re ready to move on or (4) act on the approval from reception and leave car in space until a practically good time to move it the following morning.
I’m not using this scenario to fight back at the criticism I received, it’s a genuine question as I didn’t feel entirely comfortable at the time (knowing others may also be relying on stopping at the hotel to recharge). It’s hard to believe many would take any other option than (4) above.
I’d recommend the hotel, btw - £70 per night including free electric for car
.
Out of interest, what’s your multiple choice answer for the scenario I’ve just detailed?
ACarneiro
Active Member
Well, I think a space where an overnight stay and prolonged charging time is expected is not really a comparable situation.
Seems perfectly reasonable to plug in on arrival and move at a reasonable time in the morning, especially after discussing with the proprietor.
(This, of course, opens up the whole “what would you call reasonable?” can of worms, I accept.
Your original post was in a completely different scenario
Seems perfectly reasonable to plug in on arrival and move at a reasonable time in the morning, especially after discussing with the proprietor.
(This, of course, opens up the whole “what would you call reasonable?” can of worms, I accept.
Your original post was in a completely different scenario
I’d recommend the hotel, btw - £70 per night including free electric for car
I'm down that way in July - which hotel? Based on my random splitting of our trip I was planning to stop at the Holiday Inn Toison d'Or, 21000 Dijon. (first trip on the wrong side of the road so didn't want to commit to a town centre destination and we're only passing through)
to answer your question - (4) - based on reception guidance I'd also then assume they'd give a similar answer if anyone did happen to rock up at 5am and complain that someone is hogging the charger.
Honestly I would have enjoyed my breakfast and unplugged after, no need to get up in the cold before my morning coffee.I’m opening up to be flamed on behalf of my daughter again but, as the thread hasn’t died I thought I’d explain the reason I paid. My daughter checked out the signage above the spaces this week and it does say “electric vehicle recharging point” (as apposed to “EV cars only” or similar).
If I wanted to try my luck, and I might have done for a £200+ fine, I might have tried to contend that there is nothing explicit to say this rule is applicable 24/7 where the car park restrictions are working hours only. As I’m also against people parking in charging bays whilst not charging I morally decided to pay up.
Based on some of the feedback, and tempting criticism again, I’d be interested to hear how you would treat the situation where there are EV spaces in hotel car parks. I recently stayed at a Holiday Inn in Dijon which had Tesla destination charging and fortunately 1 of the 3 spaces was free when I arrived circa 11pm. A sign at the spaces says to remove the car once yours is fully charged. I checked with reception and asked if I was expected to move the car at 5am when I was likely to be charged up. She said not to bother as it wasn’t an issue as they weren’t expecting any more guests that night. Before breakfast I moved the car (whilst noting a hybrid was still plugged in overnight!).
For those most angry at my daughters mistake, would you (1) not use the space as you wouldn’t want to move the car immediately when it’s fully charged, (2) set an alarm at 5am and move it, (3) not use the space initially but get up at 3am to move into the space so the car is fully charged for when you’re ready to move on or (4) act on the approval from reception and leave car in space until a practically good time to move it the following morning.
I’m not using this scenario to fight back at the criticism I received, it’s a genuine question as I didn’t feel entirely comfortable at the time (knowing others may also be relying on stopping at the hotel to recharge). It’s hard to believe many would take any other option than (4) above.
I’d recommend the hotel, btw - £70 per night including free electric for car
It's destination charging, I assume 7kw, so no one can be that desperate to add a mere 13 miles in the 1/2 hour while you're having your tea and croissants. But wouldn't hog it all morning either. Just be civilised about it, but personally I don't like to feel compelled to rush my morning routine just because I know I have my car plugged in.
Most hotels take your info when you are charging so they can call if someone else needs it. Coupling that with their guidance of what the normal patterns of use are, you can still be a good EV citizen without severely inconveniencing yourself. But nice try on a backwards-logic justification to the original issue, OP!
Playing devils advocate, in the original scenario my daughter may have prevented somebody charging their car from 6:30 to 7pm (albeit the other charging space was empty) in the hotel scenario somebody may have been running out of charge and headed that way at midnight with the hope of charging up before heading out the next morning. I was blocking that space for 3 hours and may have delayed their trip by that long.Well, I think a space where an overnight stay and prolonged charging time is expected is not really a comparable situation.
Seems perfectly reasonable to plug in on arrival and move at a reasonable time in the morning, especially after discussing with the proprietor.
(This, of course, opens up the whole “what would you call reasonable?” can of worms, I accept.
Your original post was in a completely different scenario
ACarneiro
Active Member
True. But your daughter wasn’t charging at any point, therefore someone was inconvenienced for nobody’s benefit.Playing devils advocate, in the original scenario my daughter may have prevented somebody charging their car from 6:30 to 7pm (albeit the other charging space was empty) in the hotel scenario somebody may have been running out of charge and headed that way at midnight with the hope of charging up before heading out the next morning. I was blocking that space for 3 hours and may have delayed their trip by that long.
In your scenario you derived the intended benefit even if inconveniencing someone by overstaying at the “tail end”.
Even from a purely utilitarian perspective, the two situations aren’t comparable.
Jason71
Well-Known Member
taking this thread totally off topic best hotel for charging I have found is Molies in Bristol they have between 8 and 12 3phase AC chargers free to use and can be booked. ( not to mention the 8 paid DC chargers out front) this is the future of hotels/charging ! and at current electric prices that could save half the cost of your stay compared to Supercharging across the road!
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