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Pencil down vs hire from Volvo

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Waiting4M3, Jan 5, 2017.

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  1. Waiting4M3

    Waiting4M3 Active Member

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    What do you all think if the new hire from Volvo, who is supposedly the interior design guy, mean for Model 3 interior and specifically dash design? Could this mean design change even though supposedly M3 design is already "pencil down"?

    Maybe the new hire will 1st work on MS/MX redesign to make them more luxurious, and maybe work on M3 later in a future iteration? I suspect that the MS/MX redesign will include the "spaceship steering system" that Elon touted about the M3 last year. But the timing of when that redesign rolls out will be interesting.

    I guess we will all know in a few months when Tesla holds the M3 reveal part 3.
     
  2. jonnyg

    jonnyg Member

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    Seems way too late now to make any major changes if they are going to be in production later this year.
     
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  3. WileyTheMan

    WileyTheMan Member

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    Yes, I think they are just hiring talent for future projects. Tesla is committed to their design choices for the M3 and any major changes to that decision now is suicide for the car and the company.
     
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  4. Jayc

    Jayc Member

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    IMO pencils down is a high-level milestone. Engineering improvements can continue (within permitted boundaries) until final configuration of production lines. And especially in the of Tesla, improvements are regular and continuous but there is no obligation on Tesla's part to give us that level of detail.
     
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  5. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    If Tesla wants to keep selling Model Ss after introduction of the Model 3, they need to do something to the Model S to justify a higher price (even if they lower the price so the difference is less). That's why they hired the Volvo designer. After addressing the Model S and X cabin, he might then work on a make over of the Model 3 for it's first refresh (2020-2022 time frame), but he probably will only have very minimal input on the Model 3, if any, for the foreseeable future.
     
  6. Trev Page

    Trev Page Member

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    First, they can't be changing anything about the Model 3 design at this stage as it would adversely affect the timeline. They purposefully tied up all the design work for the initial version of the car last July so they could get part designs out to suppliers and start the factory production line installation. The Gigafactory is now online so that part is ready.

    The new hire bodes well for a much better interior that will surely go into the Model S/X over the next year.
     
  7. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    The Model S was just refreshed a bit over six months ago... The Model X is barely a year out of its initial release. Why would either need a 'much better interior' at this point? The Model S is on an 8-year product cycle. I would suppose the same is true of Model X. So, at this point, neither of them is actually due for a redesign until 2020. Especially since the five-seat configuration for Model X is complete. I think that if someone is not satisfied with either interior, they should get the least expensive interior design they can, then take their car to an aftermarket automotive upholsterer to customize it to the form they prefer. It would still cost less than a fully loaded Porsche Panamera Turbo S.

    I suspect new hires will be working on accessories for current vehicles, and designs for upcoming vehicles. The Model Y, a pickup truck, a semi-truck, a Coupe (if I'm lucky), a two-seater... I still say that Franz Von Holzhausen hasn't been sitting on his hands since February 2012.
     
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  8. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    No. They don't 'need to do' anything of the sort. Tesla originally sought to sell perhaps 15,000 cars per year worldwide of the Model S. Through 2016 they have sold better than the equivalent of 11 years of cars at that rate. In only 4-1/2 years. For a car with an 8-year product cycle. Every Model S sold from this point forward is pure gravy to their bottom line. And they have another 3-1/2 years to collect on that gravy.

    The Model S is simply KILLING the 'competition' from Mercedes-Benz S-Class, BMW 7-Series, AUDI A8, and every other flagship ICE vehicle from traditional automobile manufacturers in the U.S. In cumulative sales of 2013 through present, Tesla has outsold them ALL. And the S-Class only managed to reclaim its formerly perennial #1 spot in class once -- in 2014 -- while being in second place every other full calendar year since the Model S was launched. During 2016, the Model S outsold the Porsche Panamera by 5.42:1! In fact, the Model S outsold Panamera, 7-Series, and A8 -- COMBINED -- in the U.S. during 2016.

    This constant supposition that Tesla has to do something to 'protect' the position of the Model S from the Model ☰ is completely out of line. Elon Musk has said since at least early 2013 that he expected the Tesla Generation III vehicle to reach annual sales of 500,000 units. The intention has always be that Model ☰ would outsell Model S by a wide, wide margin. If people truly wanted the trappings of 'luxury' more than anything else, then the Model S never would have got off the ground to begin with... Saying Model S should 'match' the others in 'luxury', when it is kicking their butts at every turn misses the point. Tesla's focus is already correct. The BMW 3-Series outsells the 7-Series, the AUDI A4 outsells the A8, and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class outsells the S-Class. That is as it should be.

    So why do you believe the Model ☰ represents a threat to the Model S?
     
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  9. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    It means... pretty much nothing.

    Nope. He'll be working on... something else. Maybe fixing the Faraway Future FF 91 and LUCID AiR?

    That isn't necessary. Model S already outsells all the 'more luxurious' brands in class. The Model X is already ahead of Porsche Cayenne. Model X will probably surpass AUDI Q7, BMW X5/X6, and Mercedes-Benz GL/GLS this year. Once people have the chance to test drive a Tesla, the others all pale in comparison.

    There were features of Model S that were not shared with the Tesla Roadster. They still aren't. Up to and including a 0-60 MPH in 2.5 seconds, instead of 3.7 seconds. The term 'Tesla Generation III' actually means something. The Model ☰ will be in certain ways far more advanced than the Model S was in 2012, or today. Rather than subtracting from Model S to distill a 'lesser' Model ☰...? Consider looking at it the other way around. The Model S is the baseline minimal benchmark that the Model ☰ will build upon.

    Yup.
     
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  10. Dan Detweiler

    Dan Detweiler Member

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    I would agree with the statements above. Tesla has never been a company to sit on its laurels. While there is no doubt that the Model 3 is priority number one, it doesn't mean they are shutting down any thought of further projects. I really think this company is going to take off in the next 18 months. All the pieces are falling into place to allow them to expand their vision of what transportation should look like.

    Dan
     
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  11. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Tesla today is killing the competition for it's car class because the S and X are unicorns. If you want the tech, it's only available at that price. Period.

    Polls have shown that over 50% of Model S owners never considered buying a car worth more than $60K and they got upsold into a Model S because it was the only thing available with that tech. I'm one of those people. When I started shopping for a car, I was looking at cars in the $30-$40K range and I would never consider buying any of the cars the Model S competes with. Even if I was a billionaire I would never buy a Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche. They aren't worth the extra premium over decently equipped mainstream cars.

    Most of the demographic who were upsold into a Model S probably would go for a M3 when it's available. Those who are used to dropping $100K on a car may continue to look at the Model S, but that's a very rarefied market which is why a medium production car like the S has dominated that market niche.

    At this time, there are very few features the S offers over the 3:
    1) It has a hatch
    2) It will probably have a bit more range
    3) It's a little larger (about 10%)
    4) The Performance model, which most people cross shopping an S and 3 will probably have better performance than the P Model 3

    The Model S sales will probably keep up for the first year as it will be impossible to get a Model 3 if you aren't already on the waiting list, but once they catch up with the waiting list and the wait for an M3 will be about the same as an MS, quite a few people will not find the 2X price of the S worth the extra money and if the S doesn't have something worth the extra cost, sales of the S will collapse to a point it won't be worth it to keep it in production.

    If Tesla can't sell around 50K Ss a year, they can make far more profit converting the S production line to making Model 3s. I think they will have to lower the price, which I think they can do. With GF built batteries and incorporating some lessons learned from the M3 production line, they can probably get the S base price down to around $45K and a fully loaded PxxxD around $100K. That will stimulate S sales and keep it viable. They may have to cut the profit margin a bit too, but 1 year into 3 production they can probably afford to do that and still be profitable.

    One of the biggest criticisms from people familiar with luxury sedans is how "cheap" and spartan the S interior is. Some people like it, but many luxury car buyers don't. With a bit of an interior refresh and a price tag more on par with Lincolns and Cadillacs, the S will remain competitive. Otherwise it will be driven out of production by competition from it's much cheaper sibling.

    People blinded by the awesomeness of Tesla don't see it, but sales of the S depend heavily on drawing in new customers. They can't keep selling upgrades to the more well heeled of their existing customers. That isn't viable. I probably have some similarity to the next generation of Tesla customer. I'm not a car guy, I was looking for a decent ICE or possibly hybrid, and I stumbled into the Tesla universe and here I am.

    All I wanted was a car that would work with my long legs, got 20%+ better mileage than my Buick, had at least the same acceleration as my Buick, and had decent cargo space. I thought in 24 years it should be easy to find something, but it wasn't. I only found 1 car that met my criteria and I bought it. I research more than most people, but introduce ICE buyers to Tesla's tech and they will buy.

    If the Model 3 was available when I was shopping and the S had a starting price around $10 - $15K more, I would have seriously thought about an S. But double the starting price and the S would be off the table without consideration.
     
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  12. Dan Detweiler

    Dan Detweiler Member

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    You know, you bring up a good point. If the Model 3 is as successful as we all think it will be, is there any reason, in say three years or so, to keep the Model S in production? It may become such a small niche market for them that Tesla's resources might better be put to use bringing the pick up or the Model Y to production. The Roadster went away when the income from its small market was no longer needed by the company to sustain the Model S and ultimately the Model X. Perhaps the Model S is put to bed when the Model 3 can carry the company through their transition to other models.

    Interesting thought.

    Dan
     
  13. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    1) Model S exterior was recently refreshed not the interior. Tesla is in a constantly update and innovate cycle not an 8 year cycle.

    2)Elon has confirmed next generation Roadster. Not a priority but will come eventually.

    3) Just because you sell a C/D segment car does not mean you can't sell an E/F segment car in sufficient volume and profitability. As stretch buyers leave the Model S and Model X camp new converts from the Germans and Lexus will be won over. ICEv are going extinct. There will likely be added features coming to S and X. And they have non rusting aluminum panels as opposed to the likely steel panels on 3.

    4) New Volvo guys is probably working on Model Y interior and Tesla Pickup interior.
     
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  14. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    This Volvo guy isn't going to design any of Tesla's interiors. I'm not sure why folks keep thinking he was responsible for Volvo's interior designs.

    Tesla hired the Porsche Mission E interior guy for that. The Volvo guy is for engineering quality manufacturing of the interiors that the design guys come up with, no?
     
  15. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    the Porsche guy is an expert in HUD,Augmented Reality, and cutting edge information screens.
     
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  16. acarlos1000

    acarlos1000 Member

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    Tesla poaches Volvo’s ‘Head of Interior Engineering’ to improve its interior quality

    "Electrek has learned that Anders Bell, Senior Director of Engineering at Volvo and the automaker’s ‘Head of Interior Engineering’ is joining Tesla in an equivalent role this month."
     
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  17. sitter_k

    sitter_k Member

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    I would love an interior like my Volvo xc90.

    Model S sells despite the interior not because of it.
     
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  18. busaman

    busaman Member

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    #18 busaman, Jan 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
    whoever designed the interior of the model s is lacking a lot of common sense and creative flair there are no door pockets the centre console is crap the armrest is too high (why put cupholders where your elbow is??) there are no coat hooks to hang a jacket on in the rear i could go on but the point is amreicans simply cant design car interiors having said that i still bought a p85d..

    the point is the design team need all the help they can get...
     
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  19. Candleflame

    Candleflame Member

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    that the more expensive car needs to be "better" is a also a myth. A good example of this is BMW where the 3 / 5 / 7 series are mainly size differentiatiors. Yes, 7 introduces new features and it takes 1 year for the 5 series to get it and then 1 more year usually for the 3 series. But that is arbitary.
     
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  20. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    The price difference between the 3, 5, and 7 is a step of about 40% from the 3 to 5 and then another 40% from the 5 to 7. The way things are now, the step from the Model 3 to S is going to be about 100% more. That's a big leap for a car that will be a 5 year old design (with 1 cosmetic facelift) vs a brand new design.

    It may be Bell was hired to do the interior on the Model Y as @RobStark asserted, but I still think he's going to be working on improving the S/X interior for easier production (which will lower costs), and aesthetics. I saw somewhere a year or so back that Elon Musk had a heavy hand in designing the Model S's interior. I'm sure the rear jump seats came about because he had 5 small kids at the time.
     

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