It was a lot of fun. I still wish I could turn off the limiters on the P100D. It kills me in the final turn @ Laguna Seca every time.Refuel 2017 was epic
Cmon, Elon. I paid for the car; let me use it at the limit.
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Performance Model 3: Excited or Disappointed?
- Thread starter GTKAZ
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- awd Model 3 Performance
Cmon, Elon. I paid for the car; let me use it at the limit.
dgaultiere
Member
This was my interpretation as well. Obviously it won’t be 15% quicker around a track, but if he said “will beat anything in its class on the track” and he means the drag strip then that is very misleading.My two cents: "15% quicker" refers to straight line acceleration. "Will beat anything in its class on the track" means it will beat the BMW M3 etc. at Laguna Seca, Nurburgring, etc. I look forward to seeing the videos.
chickensworth
Member
Dissapointed... It’s only marginally quicker than the best in class (Alfa) while being the only AWD. Calling out the M3 (oldest and slowest in class)?? Gimme a break. Then touting track performance without upgrading the brakes and suspension?
I’m skeptical... I hope I’m wrong because I’ve been waiting for this car a long time.
Really missed an opportunity in this super competitive class... if it’s just about 0-60, if needed to be at least 2.9.
I’m skeptical... I hope I’m wrong because I’ve been waiting for this car a long time.
Really missed an opportunity in this super competitive class... if it’s just about 0-60, if needed to be at least 2.9.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I wish there were any tracks near San Diego
So, a very good driver. Very impressive that he beat all the other Model S's while running all season tires! Seems like with summer tires the Model S could beat a Miata. I also wonder how much would be gained if the stability control were defeatable.
Except...its not. For a first order comparison of how two cars will accelerate relative to one another on a closed circuit track, there are few better (where better = easy to determine and relatively accurate) ways than comparing their straight line 0-60 times. If a car is traction limited in 0-60, for instance, how well the vehicle maximizes that straight line acceleration provides a pretty solid indicator as to how well it will maximize corner exit traction/acceleration.
And just to be clear, since at a minimum @JeffK missed the memo, acceleration around a closed circuit track is only part of a vehicle's lap time.
First gear is seldom used in powerful cars no matter how tight a corner gets. Second gear has more than enough torque when cornering since you can't use 100% of your traction for acceleration. One of my cars would go 62mph in 1st. That was only useful on the street.
So perhaps I could get a better 0-60mph time in a straight line if I use 1st (depends), it's too low a gear to be useful.
Now electric cars have no trans, but the same thing kicks in. Excess torque must be burned off by the inside brake or you need to feather the pedal. You are limited to how much power you can put down at low speeds, not by the motor, but by the available traction.
So perhaps I could get a better 0-60mph time in a straight line if I use 1st (depends), it's too low a gear to be useful.
Now electric cars have no trans, but the same thing kicks in. Excess torque must be burned off by the inside brake or you need to feather the pedal. You are limited to how much power you can put down at low speeds, not by the motor, but by the available traction.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
The problem is that 0-60 is so dependent on the launch which is something that is completely irrelevant to track driving. An AWD car might beat a more powerful RWD car to 60 but once you get to racetrack speeds be much slower. Quarter mile trap speed is a much better indication of how a car will accelerate at track speeds. And it's also easy to measure.
Certainly there are lower order factors that sway the result a bit to one side or the other, but its hard to deny the accuracy and repeatability of the first order 0-60 comparison. You'd be hard pressed to find an AWD car that beats a RWD car 0-60 not also beat that car squeaking out of a corner.
Again, we're not talking lap times, we're not talking total performance. We're talking acceleration. Apparently @JeffK doesn't think acceleration matters, but it does.
0-60 is simply an amazing way to roll up a vehicle's power, weight, and control over traction into a pretty universal acceleration metric. I agree that adding quarter mile gives an even more accurate comparison of closed circuit acceleration; what that really adds over 0-60 is aerodynamics and an increased emphasis on power.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Acceleration does matter, but 0-60 not as much (at least for racing on a race track).Apparently @JeffK doesn't think acceleration matters, but it does.
Also if you can't brake or maneuver quickly enough, then your gains at the starting line mean relatively nothing. In addition, you're assuming a linear rate of acceleration which is not always the case, especially in the upper speeds.
(I don't see drag cars on formula 1 tracks...)
As noted above, 0-60 is really a pretty solid first order measure of a car's ability to accelerate at all speeds.
This conversation is not about gains at the starting line on a closed circuit.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
So it's not a solid first order measure haha.
I also whole heartedly disagree that it's a measure of the cars ability to accelerate at all speeds. You MUST take gearing into account.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
For slow cars it is but it most certainly is not for fast cars. For example you might say that 2.3s 0-60 P100D is 18% faster than a 2.8s 0-60 BMW M5. However their times from 60-100 are nearly identical (3.7s vs 3.8s) and above 100mph the BMW M5 will pull away. Their 1/4 miles trap speeds are 125mph and 129mph. 0-60 is just too dependent on low speed traction and transmission performance to be a good metric for high speed acceleration.
When drag racing, we measure something called your 'sixty', which is the time it takes for rollout until you hit the first beam which is 60' from the second staging beam.
On a RWD car with front weight bias, my sixty on cold summer tires on a cold day might be 2.5 seconds.
With the exact same car, same tires, warm tires, warm track, a good dose of VHT (track prep spray), it could cut a 1.8 sixty.
However, on both passes, the trap speeds will be very similar if the air density (DA) is close. Like both are 115 mph, but one would be 12.70 @ 115 and the other 12.00 @ 115. The 0-60mph number would likewise be 4.7 seconds vs. 4.0 seconds.
Only that 115 mph number will have any effect on acceleration out of the corners assuming the tires and track are warm.
AWD cars have a much smaller variation, but it does exist.
On a RWD car with front weight bias, my sixty on cold summer tires on a cold day might be 2.5 seconds.
With the exact same car, same tires, warm tires, warm track, a good dose of VHT (track prep spray), it could cut a 1.8 sixty.
However, on both passes, the trap speeds will be very similar if the air density (DA) is close. Like both are 115 mph, but one would be 12.70 @ 115 and the other 12.00 @ 115. The 0-60mph number would likewise be 4.7 seconds vs. 4.0 seconds.
Only that 115 mph number will have any effect on acceleration out of the corners assuming the tires and track are warm.
AWD cars have a much smaller variation, but it does exist.
Another data point on acceleration is passing speed (45-65 mph). The Model 3 LR RWD really excels here compared to its competitors (see below). My guess is that the Model 3 Performance will have the same or greater advantage over its competition -- ICE is at a big disadvantage due to EV's instant torque. Any advantage in quarter mile time that a comparable ICE car may have (and it's not clear that they will) wouldn't help except at very high speeds.
An acceleration advantage plus the low CG and balance inherent to the skateboard platform should provide a significant advantage to the Model 3P. Any advantages an ICE competitor may have in braking, suspension, top end speed, etc. would have to overcome these disadvantages for it to beat the Model 3P on the track.
I think Elon's statement that the Model 3P will "beat anything in its class on the track" is pretty credible. We'll find out soon enough.
Motor Trend Model 3 LR RWD numbers for 45-65 MPH versus some other sports sedans (2017 models but likely similar for 2018):
Model 3 LR RWD 2.1 sec
Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.4 sec
Audi A4 2.0T Quattro 2.7 sec
Volvo S60 T6 AWD 2.7 sec
BMW 330i 2.9 sec
Cadillac ATS 2.0T 2.9 sec
Mercedes Benz C300 (Sport) 3.2 sec
Jaguar XE 25t 3.3 sec
Lexus IS 200t F Sport 3.7 sec
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...e-tesla-model-3-long-range-first-test-review/
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...jaguar-xe-lexus-is-200t-volvo-s60-comparison/
An acceleration advantage plus the low CG and balance inherent to the skateboard platform should provide a significant advantage to the Model 3P. Any advantages an ICE competitor may have in braking, suspension, top end speed, etc. would have to overcome these disadvantages for it to beat the Model 3P on the track.
I think Elon's statement that the Model 3P will "beat anything in its class on the track" is pretty credible. We'll find out soon enough.
Motor Trend Model 3 LR RWD numbers for 45-65 MPH versus some other sports sedans (2017 models but likely similar for 2018):
Model 3 LR RWD 2.1 sec
Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.4 sec
Audi A4 2.0T Quattro 2.7 sec
Volvo S60 T6 AWD 2.7 sec
BMW 330i 2.9 sec
Cadillac ATS 2.0T 2.9 sec
Mercedes Benz C300 (Sport) 3.2 sec
Jaguar XE 25t 3.3 sec
Lexus IS 200t F Sport 3.7 sec
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...e-tesla-model-3-long-range-first-test-review/
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...jaguar-xe-lexus-is-200t-volvo-s60-comparison/
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
If all that is true then the P100D should be a track monster, it's not. Those cars you listed are all cheaper than the Model 3, they're the low end of the range. Yes the Model 3 has very good acceleration from 45-65. It's an awesome street car! However the horsepower goes down as you go faster than that (take a look at the speeds in the video of the Miata at Laguna Seca). I'm just saying be prepared for the Model 3P to be absolutely destroyed at the track by other cars in its price range.
chickensworth
Member
To be fair, the cheaper cars were in comparison to the LR, not the P... but the point is still the same. The 3 performance has lots of boasting to live up to, and it will be humiliating if the first comparison test is anything but a solid win in favor of the 3 performance.
No question that the results are more variable as the cars (and vehicle speeds) get faster, no question there are exceptions to every rule. No question we can agree that your example happens to be an outlier.
Price range of those cars as tested is $43.9K-$51.1K -- same ballpark as Model 3 LR RWD w/ and w/o PUP. Matt Crowley seemed to think he could get a 1:50 at Laguna Seca out of his LR RWD with better brakes. Watch How The Tesla Model 3 Handles Hot Laps Around Laguna Seca. I'm more optimistic than you are about how a much faster P3 will perform. We'll find out soon enough.
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Daniel in SD
(supervised)
This thread is all about outliers! We're talking about obscenely fast cars like the BMW M3, Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, and hopefully the Model 3P.
Fair, though the context of the conversation was certainly more general. And certainly the examples you note above aren't outliers like the Model S-P is. TBD on the M3P, of course. The EV drivetrain certainly adds a variable to the concept.
In any case, here's hoping the model 3P breaks Tesla's standard for what qualifies as "P" and actually gets performance goodies beyond higher power output...
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