Performance not getting 310 miles promised

[Nocturnal]

My limited understanding is that use of a heat pump similar to what Nissan did in the 2nd gen Leaf and what BMW did with the i3 would substantially reduce the energy use needed to heat the cabin.

Tesla basically has an electric resistive heating element in the Model 3 similar to what is used in a toaster or an electric dryer. The car then uses a fan to blow this warm air out into the cabin.

Wasteful.

A heat pump warms a fluid with good thermal retention properties and circulates it on a loop where it can then be delivered via fan to the cabin. Fluid that still retains some thermal energy is recirculated through the heat exchanger so that the energy is not lost.

I believe that geothermal heating/cooling systems work on a similar principal.

A heat pump is a reverse air conditioner. Yes, it is a shame that they couldn't leverage this in the 3. That said, cold weather range loss isn't a big deal IMO.

 

[Common_Loon]

A heat pump is a reverse air conditioner. Yes, it is a shame that they couldn't leverage this in the 3. That said, cold weather range loss isn't a big deal IMO.

Interestingly, Kia/Hyundai use this in their new EVs. They are expensive, but well worth it terms of efficiency.

 

[Nocturnal]

Interestingly, Kia/Hyundai use this in their new EVs. They are expensive, but well worth it terms of efficiency.

I'd bet good money that the Model 3 will get one sooner or later. That's not a panacea though as past a certain temp (maybe 30?) a heatpump is not efficient at all. So we would be saving range in semi-cold temps but still be getting hammered in the 10s.

 

[chibi_kurochan]

Remember that you didn't drive your LR much in the cold, so what you're seeing now is also affected by that. Cabin heat can and will cause a range hit in any Model 3.

However, the biggest culprit to the low efficiency in the performance models is the Pilot Sport 4S tires. They're incredibly inefficient because they're designed for track handling. Replace them with a set of 18" all-season tires, especially high-efficiency ones like the Michelin Primacy, and you'll get a ton of range back.

I took mine off of my P3D in early December and put on 18" T-Sportline wheels with Vredestein Quatrac 5 all-weather tires. This combo isn't even particularly efficient compared to 18" Aeros with Primacys, but I still dropped my average from 320 to 270 Wh/mi.

I'm actually getting about 245Wh/mi with the stock 18" Aero and Vredestein Quatrac 5 tires after 1mo ~2000miles, driving 70-80mph throughout this "cold" northern and Southern California winter. (4-12 Celcius average). ☰ LR RWD

VS original 18" Michelin after 1 year 24,000mies - right on the money 230Wh/mi

 

[diamond.g]

I'd bet good money that the Model 3 will get one sooner or later. That's not a panacea though as past a certain temp (maybe 30?) a heatpump is not efficient at all. So we would be saving range in semi-cold temps but still be getting hammered in the 10s.

The S and X don’t have a heat pump and they are more expensive than the 3, so I would be surprised if the 3 got it first.

 

[mswlogo]

After driving my Model-3 for past few month, I can safely say that under common driving scenarios, we never will ever get those fully advertised 310 miles ever.... period!

Even If you drive non-stop in a somewhat "controlled" (i.e not applying brakes, no sudden accelerations, no AC/Heating, not heated seats, no head winds... the list goes on) environment & within the EPA recommended speeds, still you will be short of a few miles to reach that 310 miles.

So, like me, relax at the thought that we still pay less than our gas "cousins" to fill up our Model-3 "tanks" and enjoy the car..

Regards!!

But plenty of folks ARE getting better than EPA or at EPA even with 20".

Under the conditions you describe I think I could hit ~370-ish range with P3D-, in fact I am.
203 wh/mi for a week of 4 in 5 out mile commutes (worst case - short runs). This is 35F out and very limited Regen, no heat.
Granted this is around town speeds though, highway (65 mph) will probably be ~220 wh/mi

 

[Feathermerchan]

Where do heat pumps get the heat energy? Geothermal - From the ground. Air to air - the air.
So yes at 30 deg OAT they work pretty well but at 10 not so much.
Heat flows downhill from higher temp to lower temp. At low outdoor temps the outdoor coil goes below freezing and so collects ice. The ice blocks passageways that transfer heat so it must be defrosted and removed. So the outdoor coil must be brought up to a temperature above freezing long enough for the melted ice to run off. In a house heat pump you have both an outdoor and an indoor coil so the heat pump becomes an air conditioner for a few minutes and uses electric resistance heat to keep the house occupants comfortable.
In the Model 3 you have no outdoor coil but the unit would have to cool the coolant going thru the radiator to absorb heat while heating the coolant going thru the drive unit and battery. To defrost the radiator hen it gets iced up, it would have to reverse the refrigerant flow to grab some heat from the battery and heat the coolant in the radiator.
I think it would take more valving to do that if it was possible. I'm sure they looked at it.

 

[StellarRat]

I'd bet good money that the Model 3 will get one sooner or later. That's not a panacea though as past a certain temp (maybe 30?) a heatpump is not efficient at all. So we would be saving range in semi-cold temps but still be getting hammered in the 10s.

Yes, I have a heat pump at my home and it starts to struggle when the temp gets under 30 degrees. In subzero weather I have a feeling it would be next to useless. Fortunately, where I live that does not happen.

 

[Feathermerchan]

In installations where it gets really cold it is common to find the point where it is no longer economical to run the heat pump and turn it off. Then another form of heat is used until the weather warms up.

 

[Perry]

I preheat the car for fifteen minutes while it's still plugged in.

I found that when charging stops at my set point (85% for me) over night, if I preheat the car in the morning, the act of heating drops the battery down a little and it never starts charging back up the amount it lost. If I preheat for a while and it goes down to 83% it stays there. And if I don't use the car that day it may phantom drain maybe to 80% and even though it's plugged in, it never sucks any more juice to go back to the set point 85%. Is this normal?

 

[WarpedOne]

It is not the cold air, it is the cold battery - the energy goes into warming up those 1000 pounds of metal.
And this is not something tesla decided to do using resistive heater, this happens 'automaticaly' due to cold battery having much higher internal resistance while discharging.
Heat-pump in freezing temps is useless, there is not much/anything to pump ...

Do not want to loose that much range in winter?
Make sure you do not start your journey with a frozen battery.

What might help though is some insulation of the car's belly to reduce the aircooling the battery gets while driving thorough freezing air.
Though I'm not sure of the extent this would help.

 

[MP3Mike]

I found that when charging stops at my set point (85% for me) over night, if I preheat the car in the morning, the act of heating drops the battery down a little and it never starts charging back up the amount it lost. If I preheat for a while and it goes down to 83% it stays there. And if I don't use the car that day it may phantom drain maybe to 80% and even though it's plugged in, it never sucks any more juice to go back to the set point 85%. Is this normal?

Do you have it set to not start charging until a certain time?

 

[Perry]

Do you have it set to not start charging until a certain time?

Yes I have it set for 11:30 PM but shouldn't it start again when it reaches that time. It doesn't. If car is left alone un-driven the entire day and it drops from my limit of 85% to 80% due to phantom drain, it doesn't start charging again at 11:30 PM unless I have driven it that day (took the charging cord in and out).

 

[Dan_LA]

I've had LR RWD model 3 for a year and for 12K miles, it takes .259 Kw average per mile and I've had a pretty heavy foot for it. Only had my performance M3 for a month so 360 miles of data pretty small but its .414 Kw average. Granted its only been used in cold season but I was surprised by this number.

Yea me too same scenario. Can't compare because basically was a Summer car and P3 is on longer winter (for LA standards) car. I will take 260 miles range anytime on winter, NOT 200 miles which is what I am getting no matter how I drive, I am waiting to get warmer and have more data on that, pretty sure my battery is flawed even they say is not.

I believe the EPA rating they base the 310 on was for the old Performance model without the PUP. Now that they don’t sell it without the PUP, they should update with a new rating. It will most likely be much closer to the MR model, probably 265 or 270. Wheels and tires make a substantial difference.

Yes, they should and that's my point here. I am NOT asking or EXPECT 310 miles, but at least 250 miles, and NOT 180-200 miles which is what I am getting, AC/heater off most of times to take out of equation. Driving LA speed 70-80mph.

Today. 33 degrees. Round trip (550 vertical feet change - down on the way and up on the way back). 85 miles. 2/3 highway, 1/3 city. Very limited heat. 252 Wh/mi. M3P. 20” wheels, Michelin A/S 3+.

310 completely achievable.

You got a good unit, I got a bad unit with 180-200 miles range, never drove more than that range, tried turning off heater, driving slower at 70mph (for LA standards) and no help. Only 1 time I hit 250kwh/mi but then I was going downhill most of time apparently.

No I'm quite certain performance was never tested as the EPA doesn't require it for model variations that account for less than 35% of total volume. EPA allows the rating on the car tested to be applied to the untested model variations. Car manufacturers don't give the government any more information than they need to.

Two important factors for about EPA range.....

1. EPA tests are done on a dyno, indoors at ROOM Temperature
2. EPA range is a composite of 55% city and 45% highway. And although there is an acceleration component to the test with speed up to 80 mph, the highway portion reaches a max of only 60mph. There is also an air conditioning component to the test but I haven't seen any mention of a heater component.

Again my post here is not ASKING EPA 310 miles, for sure variation happens, I can take 250 miles range or Tesla Technician claimed for this car 250 wh/mi... But NOT 180-200 range.

Sorry in advance for the "rant-ish" post...

First of all, the M3P is a SPORTS CAR. Yes, I would strongly argue that it is the FINEST EVERYDAY DRIVING SPORTS CAR EVER DESIGNED, but make no mistake it is a SPORTS CAR. If you want a commuter the LR or MR are there for the asking.

And, despite the M3P being a Sports Car, it both CAN and DOES fairly easily get 310 miles on a charge. I am getting very close to that when it is 33 degrees out with an elevation change of 500 feet (in each direction) on my roundtrip commutes. I have done that on both the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S stock wheels / tires AND my current "winter" Michelin A/S 3+ tires (also on stock 20" wheels). As a matter of fact, the range difference between the two sets of tires is at most a couple of Wh/mile.

So much is not said here about driver responsibility in achieving range. When I drive the M3P like a true sports care enthusiast my Wh/mi can climb well into the 300's (350-375 Wh/mi). When I am commuting and using the car as transportation only (albeit awesome / fun transportation) that number is down between 235-260 Wh/mi -- well within the EPA's and Tesla's stated range.

Similarly, I used to own a 2007 Ferrari 430 with a stated combined EPA of 13mpg (11 city / 16 highway). Now that was NOT a commuter car / daily driver and accordingly I usually drove it like a sports car, and I NEVER came close to those numbers. The BEST combined MPG I ever got on a tank was 10 MPG (yes, you read that horrifying number correctly) and more often it was down around 9 MPG. But I drove the car hard. Can you imagine me (or anyone else) getting on a Ferrari Chat Board with a headline saying "Ferrari 430 not getting MPG Promised?"

Thanks for your input, yes it's a damn race car, and they should pay more attention on misleading range when folks are paying $80k for. car. Yes I wasn't expecting 310 miles, but at most 230-250 ... not 180-200 I am getting so far.

After driving my Model-3 for past few month, I can safely say that under common driving scenarios, we never will ever get those fully advertised 310 miles ever.... period!

Even If you drive non-stop in a somewhat "controlled" (i.e not applying brakes, no sudden accelerations, no AC/Heating, not heated seats, no head winds... the list goes on) environment & within the EPA recommended speeds, still you will be short of a few miles to reach that 310 miles.

So, like me, relax at the thought that we still pay less than our gas "cousins" to fill up our Model-3 "tanks" and enjoy the car..

Regards!!

Repeating my responses, I am not asking 310 miles, I am saying the advertised range is misleading folks even if that's EPA loophole or they tested with 10" kart wheels. I can accept 250 miles range on a 310 advertised, I can't accept 180-200 miles range I am getting.

Trying to enjoy here, but 180-200 range (no heater or AC) it's though to accept in LA weather, even if is the "worst" winter in the last 10 years. Sometimes yea I just don't care, other times I think I am being ripped off $80k when I should have paid $60k for the 200miles range, maybe I got the unique cheaper Performance model and Folks at Tesla HQ are just laughing. I will give then the benefit of doubt and wait until summer as someone posted achieving 285 wh/mi and 260 range... that's my only option for now before I press them on the wall.

 

[Dan_LA]

Updating here so a technician tested my BMS but just said over PHONE that was in perfect condition BUT on EMAIL he do mentioned ALSO that I maxed ay 87mph, I hard accelerated 4 times, I went over speed limit etc... reminded me scene in Godfather when Don Corleone "persuaded" the guy to sign the agreement... haha.. I laugh at it, I love Tesla, I want to help Elon with his well intentions, but that doesn't mean I can get ripped off. It doesn't mean Tesla can get away of all crap as I am not a fanboy that will take anything. They are a business at the end and they are liable for their products.

"
I’ve preemptively performed an HV battery health check, and right now everything is checking out OK on my end. There are no repairs that I can recommend at this time. Please see the results below:


· No active alerts related to Battery Management System (BMS).

· Performed Model 3 - Range - Specific Drive Analysis: No concerning consumption abnormalities detected.

· Average total consumption for last 2892.97 miles is 323.8 Wh/mi. Recommended driving efficiency (which takes into account energy) for this VIN is rated at 250.0 Wh/mi.


* When driving at a higher Watt-hour per mile (Wh/mi), the decrease in estimated range will go down at a faster rate than actual miles driven. HV battery operating as designed. No repairs recommend at this time.


I also performed a specific drive analysis between Start time: 2019-01-03 15:50:48 - End time: 2019-01-03 16:32:18:


· Range & Energy used: The vehicle was in Drive for 0.7 hours / 41.0 minutes. During this time it travelled 23.7 miles showing a use of 287.0 Wh/mi.

· Driving Statistics: The maximum speed reached during the journey was 87.0 mph. The accelerator was pushed aggressively 4.0 times.
"

Also for the following email regarding charging state and battery being new, I will give that credit for now.

"
How far down do you normally let the state of energy get before you charge? It is possible that the algorithm used to display your energy level isn’t as accurate as it could be due to your charging habits – since your vehicle is still relatively new. Do me a favor and let your energy level get down to approx. 10% and then charge it to 100%. If you’re able to do this a couple of time before your appointment and report back me that would be great! I normally suggest to do this over a period of a couple of weeks, but let’s see how the next few days go and hope it helps.


Lastly, do you remember what days you charged to 100%? I’d like to do a little more research on my end while we investigate. Thanks!
"

Will try to let it go down 10% and supercharge to 100% or the max 98-99%, anyone was able to charge 100%? I would get 100% with previous M3 all the time... anyways.

 

[Perry]

Yea me too same scenario. Can't compare because basically was a Summer car and P3 is on longer winter (for LA standards) car. I will take 260 miles range anytime on winter, NOT 200 miles which is what I am getting no matter how I drive, I am waiting to get warmer and have more data on that, pretty sure my battery is flawed even they say is not.

I don't think you have a flawed battery because I get worse range than you on my P3D- and they also told me my battery is fine. If I drive normal (my normal) I get about 160 miles range and if I drive spiritedly in the mountains I get 60 miles range. Yes that's right only 60 miles range TOTAL with a 1211 kw/mile consumption not in the cold (California) and not with heater. The problem is these cars have wild fluctuation in battery consumption based on how you drive and one number is just not the right way to define range.

My P3D- should have been rated as such: 40-300 miles range based on driving and environmental conditions.

 

[UngaBunga1989]

You got a good unit, I got a bad unit with 180-200 miles range, never drove more than that range, tried turning off heater, driving slower at 70mph (for LA standards) and no help. Only 1 time I hit 250kwh/mi but then I was going downhill most of time apparently.

Are you certain that it is not your driving style? Please do not take this the wrong way, but I can very, very easily use 425+ Wh/mi WITHOUT heat by driving more aggressively and if I don't pay attention to how I drive, I can easily be in the 350 Wh/mi area. That has nothing to do with the car and everything to do with me. There is a way to drive an EV for range -- not "hypermiling," but driving for range.

By way of example, in my old 2016 Volt -- which my wife now drives, I routinely can get 55 miles on a charge when I don't use the heat. I can get 70 miles when I drive for range. My wife has never gotten more than 42 miles. Same car. Different driving styles. Rapid acceleration and/or braking are just as harmful to range as all-out speed...

 

[AidenL]

Any more updates on mileage being achieved recently? More owners to add to the data perhaps?

 

[MXWing]

Someone sure f'd up.

It's like marrying a hot woman and complaining she's also crazy.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Any more updates on mileage being achieved recently? More owners to add to the data perhaps?

My brother, in a P3D Stealth (no longer available), managed an average of 247Wh/mi over 194 miles Seattle to Portland, at an average trip speed of 68.5mph (this would be about 300 miles range for a full discharge):

5000 miles on the vehicle
Stock MXM4s with aeros installed

Weather Conditions:
70 degrees (so totally minimal climate control)
calm/still
dry
light traffic, so limited, but probably still significant, drafting.

Average speed: 68.5mph (most of the time he had cruise set to 77mph on I-5).

MXM4s are significantly lower rolling resistance than the PS4S which are now standard, and the slightly lighter wheel/tire combo may help very very slightly, but the tires do not have the grip.

This is a good result. Conditions are basically optimal. Lower speeds would help a lot, but of course that is not the fastest way between points A and B - it is better to drive faster and Supercharge.