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Performance not performing

Wheely

Member
Apr 11, 2018
71
63
Norway
I'm an expat in Denmark, so I've been lucky enough to have my 2021 M3P for a few weeks now - no long waits :) Before I bought it I did a lot of checking after watching Bjørn's videos and what surprised me was that there wasn't a lot of reliable information/data out there - sure there's his test(s) and a couple of other people posting some isolated figures, and of course LOADS of discussion/opinions, but very little what I would call evidence. I'm not saying it isn't an issue, but it surprised me that there weren't more detailed comparisons for an issue that could be so serious. Hundreds of '5 things I like/dislike about my Tesla' - some of which are very informative - but it would be good with a better balance between the video content. It's good that RSymons, CarWow (and a couple of Tesla Gurus vids) are now releasing some good comparisons content.
I posted last week that I got a 6.0 sec 0-100km with a 20% SOC in a car that had stood outside all night with 1 degrees outside temp after driving 2 kms. Today I did a few runs with a warm battery and 11 degrees temp. At 19% SOC I got several runs at 4.1 secs with a HP reading of between 380 and 415 from Teslalogger. At 14% I got 6.6 sec and 270 HP, and at 9% 7.1 sec and 234 HP - all figures with a stopwatch but erring on the side of caution. Luckily those are figures I can live with. It's not 0 degrees all year round and I'm not often driving with less than 20% SOC. If I start to worry about being faster than a LR, I can take comfort in the fact that for the majority of my driving I will be.
Anyway, for me it was what I felt was a better sorted chassis that swung it for me, and the fact that in Denmark the P is only approx. £3000 more than the LR. In fact the M3P is probably the only car in Denmark that is actually cheaper than its equivalent in the UK (by £2000)which is amazing if you live here - anyone for a standard BMW 520? -yours for the equivalent of £70,000 or an Audi RS6? -£215,000😲) - so a no brainer :)
6 seconds at 20% charge is pretty awful really and at 1C it wasn't even that cold. 20% is also not an unreasonable SOC to be driving with either particularly given the car charges fast at that point. Do you have the latest firmware? I live in Norway and we spend months between -5 and -25C and the thing that concerns me most is that you expect the car to react in a particular way when you need it. If it is 2 or 4 times slower than it usually is, that could be an issue.
 

Mrklaw

Member
Mar 5, 2020
396
205
Berkshire
6 seconds at 20% charge is pretty awful really and at 1C it wasn't even that cold. 20% is also not an unreasonable SOC to be driving with either particularly given the car charges fast at that point. Do you have the latest firmware? I live in Norway and we spend months between -5 and -25C and the thing that concerns me most is that you expect the car to react in a particular way when you need it. If it is 2 or 4 times slower than it usually is, that could be an issue.

I wonder if part of it is about how reliably you can pull high amounts of power out of the battery at low state of charge? Eg like when your iphone is a little older so the battery health isn't great, it can say 30% and seem fine, then suddenly power off because it can't handle a CPU spike.

Although in that case you'd expect a similar profile for LR at low temp/low SoC, although the max power of the motors is lower so it may be less affected by it
 
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Mar 15, 2021
234
421
Essex
For me it’s very simple- you read and digest information provided and make an informed decision. If you decide to switch to the LR then good luck and Enjoy. But once you have made that decision move on !! For me I’m going to stick with my decision as I’m about to buy the best car for the price money can buy at that price.
 
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jliver33

Member
Apr 19, 2021
10
20
Manchester
Well I can give more of an update having had long discussions with the very helpful Tesla techie at the SC, but to be honest I did turn into a bit of a lurker here as some of the responses in the thread just baffled me!

Came here to highlight my experiences and offer words of caution but think I have heard every justification:

"you must be in chill mode"
"you must be accelerating into an obstacle"
"my 2019 P doesn't have this issue"
"it will get fixed by software, don't worry"
"no one drives fast at sub 40% charge anyway"
"no one drives fast in the cold anyway"
"it's not -14c so will never be a problem"
"the problem doesn't exist"
"the problem hasn't been widely enough reported to exist"
"if you send the P back and get a long range then move on and don't post here again"
"you don't have the latest software"

I know we're all here because we like Tesla's but :eek:
 

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
2,838
2,713
Shropshire
Well I can give more of an update having had long discussions with the very helpful Tesla techie at the SC, but to be honest I did turn into a bit of a lurker here as some of the responses in the thread just baffled me!

Came here to highlight my experiences and offer words of caution but think I have heard every justification:

"you must be in chill mode"
"you must be accelerating into an obstacle"
"my 2019 P doesn't have this issue"
"it will get fixed by software, don't worry"
"no one drives fast at sub 40% charge anyway"
"no one drives fast in the cold anyway"
"it's not -14c so will never be a problem"
"the problem doesn't exist"
"the problem hasn't been widely enough reported to exist"
"if you send the P back and get a long range then move on and don't post here again"
"you don't have the latest software"

I know we're all here because we like Tesla's but :eek:
I only followed the first couple of pages of this and aside from slightly smug LR owners everything I saw was pretty constructive.
maybe it descended in the following 8 pages but I saw a lot of people trying to help early on
In my experience this forum is bizarrely devoid of Tesla Fanboys.
 
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jliver33

Member
Apr 19, 2021
10
20
Manchester
...and your update is?

Recap for those new to thread - I bought a 2021 P off inventory. Fremont car. Noticed a real issue on some cold nights/morning (6-11c ambient), when state of charge was below 60%. Felt sluggish. Reported to tesla who told me it was "within spec". Ended up going back and forth and it being booked into an SC. Came back to me with latest software. It was slightly improved but issues remained. I rejected the car and it's gone, but now Tesla are chasing me for excess mileage as they claim I used it too much before rejection. Go figure.

Anyway, had a long chat with Tesla techie and his view was:

Issues with P at lower states of charge combined with cold ambient temps are well known and widely reported.
Solution is "not easy".
The P has a larger battery than the LR as the motors require a higher peak power.
However the P has different battery chemistry and higher peak power cannot be sustained at lower states of charge.
A lower state of charge with high power demand causes "voltage sag" which can damage battery, software intervenes to limit peak power.
Combine this with a low temperature and battery goes into a protection mode which is why acceleration is drastically reduced.
Addition of heatpump which scavenges battery heat worsens it even further.
P battery chemistry means it actually needs more heat compared to LR to be able to efficiently release the extra power required.
LR doesn't suffer from same issues because peak power demand not as high, and chemistry different - his words were "more even"
P is not really suited to northern climates.
Made in China has same battery as Fremont P's. Don't expect a quick fix.
Lots of orders for P's in UK this year with the BiK changes. Expects there to be a lot of problems come next winter.


I don't know how true any of that is, and am just repeating his thoughts. His recommendation was:

LR max power is 324kw versus P max power of 377kw. (-53kw)
LR battery more stable and actually outperforms P battery.
Accel boost gives 37kw approx. Taking LR to 361kw. Battery can handle it.
Best option is an LR with accel boost. The difference in max power is just 15kw which is not noticeable once moving.
Only difference between LR and P acceleration mapping is that P has a larger peak power from standstill, so you get more of a punch from a launch, but otherwise once moving, there is no discernible difference between LR and P.


So he said... get an LR with boost and you actually have a car which can perform as a P without the issues of limited acceleration at low SoC and low temps, or at least a much more usable car.

:oops:

Right now I'll go put my tin hat on for when all the P obsessionists turn up
 

jliver33

Member
Apr 19, 2021
10
20
Manchester
I only followed the first couple of pages of this and aside from slightly smug LR owners everything I saw was pretty constructive.
maybe it descended in the following 8 pages but I saw a lot of people trying to help early on
In my experience this forum is bizarrely devoid of Tesla Fanboys.
Fair comment. Perhaps I am just frustrated by the whole experience.
 

GtiMart

Member
Nov 13, 2019
983
827
Quebec City, Canada
Just FYI, it's not just the performance, and it's not just the 2021 that are affected by cold. In Canada, in -20C temperatures, even with a 90% full battery, if my car (2020 AWD+Boost) was parked outside for the night and I don't preheat anything, I get something like 100-120hp (and no regen). As the battery warms up I get more and more power. It's not like Tesla can do anything magical, there are physics involved :) A cold battery just cannot put out the same raw power. Similarly when the battery gets to a low SOC, the pack voltage is lower so, at least because of that, it cannot put out the same power.
 

btc1k

Member
Jan 18, 2021
464
325
Bristol
Just FYI, it's not just the performance, and it's not just the 2021 that are affected by cold. In Canada, in -20C temperatures, even with a 90% full battery, if my car (2020 AWD+Boost) was parked outside for the night and I don't preheat anything, I get something like 100-120hp (and no regen). As the battery warms up I get more and more power. It's not like Tesla can do anything magical, there are physics involved :) A cold battery just cannot put out the same raw power. Similarly when the battery gets to a low SOC, the pack voltage is lower so, at least because of that, it cannot put out the same power.
Sure, yes I think that principle is widely acknowleged.

But the P is affected drastically more. That's the point.
Screen Shot 04-20-21 at 01.39 PM.PNG
 

Mattallica

Member
Apr 2, 2021
137
97
Durham
This is a HUGE thing. Not a problem that I have but I'll be watching developments with interest.
I find it astounding (but sadly maybe I shouldn't!) that Tesla would drop the ball so badly on this one (if it does turn out to be true)

Makes you wonder if you pre-heated the car and battery prior to setting off what the difference would be.

The big shift away from LR was that the brakes overheat easier, and when looking at business leases, you wouldn't be able to purchase the boost package, so you'd never be able to get close to the P in good conditions at standing.
 

Adopado

Active Member
Aug 19, 2019
3,804
2,911
Scotland
Sure, yes I think that principle is widely acknowleged.

But the P is affected drastically more. That's the point.
View attachment 664626

It's clear from the data that the 2019 P with a battery temperature maintained above 28c is barely affected. The battery temperature on the 2021 car falls off a cliff! It seems reasonable to assume that battery temperature management is the key. The hardware that achieves this is under software control so it's not unreasonable to assume that some correction can be made. All the recent software updates refer to improved cold weather performance. So it seems to me that attempts are being made to deal with the issue. We need new tests and numbers!
 
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ACarneiro

Active Member
Jun 20, 2019
1,354
1,094
Shrewsbury, Shropshire, UK
Makes you wonder if you pre-heated the car and battery prior to setting off what the difference would be.
I'm sure it would make an improvement, until the heat pump scavenges the heat out of the battery again.
Regardless, it would appear that the technology may have very significant constraints in colder climates.
This is not the way to lure people away from ICE to EVs.
 

Mattallica

Member
Apr 2, 2021
137
97
Durham
I'm sure it would make an improvement, until the heat pump scavenges the heat out of the battery again.
Regardless, it would appear that the technology may have very significant constraints in colder climates.
This is not the way to lure people away from ICE to EVs.

It isn't a good advert, no. But as @Adopado says above, it could just a software update away from being resolved - cutdown on the scavenge, or accept some lifespan loss of SOC at the expense of performance.

Makes you wonder what the Taycan does to mitigate this issue, mindful that they are new to this arena, and have a car setup that can deliver blisteringly quick performance to rival the M3P.
 

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