I'm somewhat in the same boat. My longest planned drive(several times a year) is 185 miles with roughly 40 percent at 75mph. I was originally set with getting the 60kwh pack, but if one assumes the EPA rated mileage similar to the 85kwh pack, effective range is 203.((265/300)*230) Then considering battery degradation....it just won't work. I could always drive our other vehicle for these trips but that kind of defeats the purpose of paying this much for a car. A $70,000 city dweller? I will admit, the Performance model was AMAZING and would be my top choice but I can't stomach $90,000+ for a car. I can afford it, but not in good conscience. So it's either the 85kwh or nothing. Superchargers are not an option and realistically won't arrive here...ever.
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Performance vs. Base Model; 60KW vs. 85KW battery choice?
- Thread starter Bluhorizan
- Start date
The 85 kWh is definitely the way to go for you. You should be able to make that trip for many years in standard mode then later in range mode. You will get Superchargers at some point (hopefully) but it may be part of the 5 year plan instead of the 2 year plan.
Well, I kept my first new car as a daily driver from 1972 to 1991. Denise drives the 2001 Prius, and I wouldn't even think about getting rid of the 2004 except for the Model S. (The POS VW TDI was dumped after five years--so disappointing). I would like to think that the Model S will be the last car I purchase.
As a former Roadster owner with 20,000 EV miles and a new Sig S (standard, not performance), let me make another argument for the 85kWh battery. The extra kWh give you more flexibility; they can come in handy in a number of different situations, including:
- the ability to drive a longer leg at 75mph instead of 60-65: that last 10-15mph costs you 30%-40% more Wh/mile
- contending with with a 15mph headwind (ditto)
- when you get home from your longish daily commute after giving a 45 minute, high performance demo ride at lunch, with no time to charge, and your spouse says, "Honey, I hope you don't mind, but the Frobishers' anniversary is today and they want to treat us to dinner over in (insert moderately far-off town here) at (insert fancy restaurant here). They're so excited because I told them we'd drive them in the S!"
I'm sure you can think of others. I'd pick the bigger battery over Performance any day; the Standard has more performance than most of us will ever need and I'm tired of buying expensive, HP tires every 5,000-6000 miles as it worked out for the Roadster.
Of course, YMMV.:biggrin:
- the ability to drive a longer leg at 75mph instead of 60-65: that last 10-15mph costs you 30%-40% more Wh/mile
- contending with with a 15mph headwind (ditto)
- when you get home from your longish daily commute after giving a 45 minute, high performance demo ride at lunch, with no time to charge, and your spouse says, "Honey, I hope you don't mind, but the Frobishers' anniversary is today and they want to treat us to dinner over in (insert moderately far-off town here) at (insert fancy restaurant here). They're so excited because I told them we'd drive them in the S!"
I'm sure you can think of others. I'd pick the bigger battery over Performance any day; the Standard has more performance than most of us will ever need and I'm tired of buying expensive, HP tires every 5,000-6000 miles as it worked out for the Roadster.
Of course, YMMV.:biggrin:
Or get both:smile: Really though the performance is almost too much for the ContiContact Extreme DW tires that come on it but I have no desire to go to stickier tires that only last 7,000 miles. I haven't driven the standard 85 kWh car but agree that it should be more than enough for most people. It's worth test driving it first of course to find out for yourself if it meets expectations.
I actually floor my Lexus ls430 way too often. I think it does a 6.5s 0-60. I can't wait to have the S. 6.5 is decent, but slow when there is a shift involved or if you aren't in 1st gear to begin with (which is why I manually shift my Automatic.. hmm) I will floor my S every day! It is like an RC car, plane, or heli. You don't just use part of the speed and never go full throttle. It is so much more fun to max them out
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Hmm... Eureka's not the sleepy, coastal town that I imagined it to be. Gotta stay out of ZET's way over there!
contaygious
Active Member
My situation is just like the other Bay Area posters in terms if where I would drive. 60 is great to save money and you can still add lots of options, but I need 85 to cure my range anxiety under various driving conditions and enjoy the performance of the car. Cars with similiar performance have awful mpg, but they can fill up anywhere. Once you are at 85 then performance seems like only a small amount more.
Yeah, that's the problem with the Model S. Each item is only a small amount more and once you've committed to that the next amount looks smaller yet. I think it was Senator Dirkson who said, "A billion here, a billion, there and pretty soon you're talking about real money".
My problem is it ends up being significantly more than what is stated on the website. Once you add in the insurance, charges, fees and taxes about 15% more at day 1 (at least in California). And that $20K battery is going to cost you more each year you register your car or pay insurance premiums.
On the other hand getting the 60Kw battery and the supercharging doesn't add up to me vs the 85Kw. It's now an $8K difference not $10K. All things being equal the dollars per Kwh don't make sense. $10K+ for the first 40Kw, $12K for the second 20Kw and $8K for the next 25Kw.
Resale value is another thing. If I assume the car is worth 50% 5 years from now and the battery worth 35% (3/8ths) then the $40K car is now worth $20K and the $60K top end car worth $30K The remaining values for the battery are about $3K for the 40Kw, $7K for the 60Kw and $10K for the 85Kw.
So a base 40Kw car is now worth $23K and the top line 85Kw car worth $40K.
I don't think the desirability factor will be relevant 5 years from now unless BEVs remain a small niche market because the technology/capability/$ for BEVs 5 years from now will have made any differences inconsequential. It may even work against you. The more niche it remains the lower the early adopter premium lost.
But, even if I do fudge in $10K desirability in 5 years for the top of the line car you still have consumed $50K of car vs $27K for the base. And all those additional recurring costs are just sunk.
Actually, that is being optimistic because the 85Kw cars will likely have many more miles on them than the 40Kw cars 5 years from now and that too will diminish any desirability or other premium.
On the other hand getting the 60Kw battery and the supercharging doesn't add up to me vs the 85Kw. It's now an $8K difference not $10K. All things being equal the dollars per Kwh don't make sense. $10K+ for the first 40Kw, $12K for the second 20Kw and $8K for the next 25Kw.
Resale value is another thing. If I assume the car is worth 50% 5 years from now and the battery worth 35% (3/8ths) then the $40K car is now worth $20K and the $60K top end car worth $30K The remaining values for the battery are about $3K for the 40Kw, $7K for the 60Kw and $10K for the 85Kw.
So a base 40Kw car is now worth $23K and the top line 85Kw car worth $40K.
I don't think the desirability factor will be relevant 5 years from now unless BEVs remain a small niche market because the technology/capability/$ for BEVs 5 years from now will have made any differences inconsequential. It may even work against you. The more niche it remains the lower the early adopter premium lost.
But, even if I do fudge in $10K desirability in 5 years for the top of the line car you still have consumed $50K of car vs $27K for the base. And all those additional recurring costs are just sunk.
Actually, that is being optimistic because the 85Kw cars will likely have many more miles on them than the 40Kw cars 5 years from now and that too will diminish any desirability or other premium.
60 pack/ blue/ tan/ 21"/ tech/ air susp/ sound/ sunroof.
1st. Apple, I mean Tesla is pricing battery packs like ipods/ iphones.
2nd. Model X comes out in later 2014, I'm sure a later model S will be out before that - better seats with vent holes and/or hip hugging feature and adjustable head, cameras instead of side mirrors, self latching doors (like a trunk), better visors with lights, electronically controlled vent positioning, front and rear parking sensors, front camera, better and lighter battery.
3rd. The rumor is the profits from the S sales are going towards creating a mass market midsize sedan, think 325i or Lexus IS250/350 or even hight end Jetta.
4th. As battery technology improves (See The Scientific Accident That May Change The World (Or At Least Your Battery Life)) prices will fall, EMusk said himself regarding TRoadster.
5th. The Tesla is composed in a way that battery replacement/ upgrade with be an option: "A Battery Replacement Option will be available for purchase soon. The option allows you to pre-purchase a new battery to be installed after eight years for a fixed price: $10,000 for 60 kWh batteries and $12,000 for 85 kWh batteries." http://www.teslamotors.com/models/facts
6th. I invision this company willing to allow you to trade your old car for a new one/ upgrade - keep in mind every single stat about our Teslas are being recorded (charing, driving, distance, breaking, etc. EVERYTHING). So, when you go to trade/ upgrade, they will know exactly what your battery is worth, not a bad thing, just the fact.
7th. If all the above happens to be true, I see myself trading my Model S within 5 years or sooner. So, I do wish I had the Performance S but I see a battery being able to reach 400 miles/chrg. (365 w/ degeneration) I would say that would be the tipping point.
Final thoughts: Is the plan to flood the market with electric cars to create the demand for high speed charging stations? Will gas stations begin to convert 25% to electric charging stations? I think it will happen within 5 years.
Let me know what you think of the video above.
1st. Apple, I mean Tesla is pricing battery packs like ipods/ iphones.
2nd. Model X comes out in later 2014, I'm sure a later model S will be out before that - better seats with vent holes and/or hip hugging feature and adjustable head, cameras instead of side mirrors, self latching doors (like a trunk), better visors with lights, electronically controlled vent positioning, front and rear parking sensors, front camera, better and lighter battery.
3rd. The rumor is the profits from the S sales are going towards creating a mass market midsize sedan, think 325i or Lexus IS250/350 or even hight end Jetta.
4th. As battery technology improves (See The Scientific Accident That May Change The World (Or At Least Your Battery Life)) prices will fall, EMusk said himself regarding TRoadster.
5th. The Tesla is composed in a way that battery replacement/ upgrade with be an option: "A Battery Replacement Option will be available for purchase soon. The option allows you to pre-purchase a new battery to be installed after eight years for a fixed price: $10,000 for 60 kWh batteries and $12,000 for 85 kWh batteries." http://www.teslamotors.com/models/facts
6th. I invision this company willing to allow you to trade your old car for a new one/ upgrade - keep in mind every single stat about our Teslas are being recorded (charing, driving, distance, breaking, etc. EVERYTHING). So, when you go to trade/ upgrade, they will know exactly what your battery is worth, not a bad thing, just the fact.
7th. If all the above happens to be true, I see myself trading my Model S within 5 years or sooner. So, I do wish I had the Performance S but I see a battery being able to reach 400 miles/chrg. (365 w/ degeneration) I would say that would be the tipping point.
Final thoughts: Is the plan to flood the market with electric cars to create the demand for high speed charging stations? Will gas stations begin to convert 25% to electric charging stations? I think it will happen within 5 years.
Let me know what you think of the video above.
I've been talking to a LEAF owner and he thinks that Tesla's are overkill, "you are just carrying all that energy with you which you don't need, you might as well drive an ICE".
He also said that the charging infrastructure is changing rapidly and that fast charges are appearing everywhere and all the time. Here is a guy with the experience and following his logic a 60 KWh is more than enough. It just requires a change of mindset, knowing where you park and charging when you are parking.
You might as well save on the supercharge capability as there are alternatives popping-up all the time. Even if you have to pay on these rare occasions it will still save you quite a bit.
i'm starting to get confused and I am now thinking of going with the least expensive solution and keeping the extra money in my pocket,
He also said that the charging infrastructure is changing rapidly and that fast charges are appearing everywhere and all the time. Here is a guy with the experience and following his logic a 60 KWh is more than enough. It just requires a change of mindset, knowing where you park and charging when you are parking.
You might as well save on the supercharge capability as there are alternatives popping-up all the time. Even if you have to pay on these rare occasions it will still save you quite a bit.
i'm starting to get confused and I am now thinking of going with the least expensive solution and keeping the extra money in my pocket,
Good for you, Dutchie! It's really a good idea to think these things through completely so you can be totally comfortable with your final choice. Sometimes a Tesla IS overkill. Just like sometimes a 6 cylinder is overkill instead of a 4 cylinder. But it doesn't mean that you should not get it. I opted for the P85 after careful and long deliberation. In my first trip I was SO thankful that I had made that choice. I drove from Chattanooga to Vanderbilt Hospital in Nashville and returned to Chattanooga all on a single charge. I could not have done that in a 60 and couldn't have come even close in a Leaf. Obviously I could have done that in a S85 instead of the P85 and saved some money. I chose the P because I wanted a P85. Your friend is right in that chargers ARE appearing everywhere and will hopefully continue to proliferate, but when considering value you also need to include your time. It has value too. Besides, there are fast chargers and then there are superfast chargers. Only you can decide what is right for you. I think you should take all the input you can from others then make your decision based on what YOU want. No matter what you choose, I hope you will be happy with your choice and have no regrets later.
That sounds a lot like "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". There are a number of members of the NTEAA who have Leafs, and one of the more frequent comments is, "I can't attend that event because it's more than half my range away".
In my opinion, with a Leaf you're always looking for a place to charge. In the Model S, you only look for a place to charge if you're on a trip. The rare occasions where the Leaf doesn't have enough range would happen at least weekly and often twice a week. In bad weather it would be every single day.
I really like that I have never had to look for a place to charge except on vacation trips.
