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(perhaps) half of solar and wind energy production should go towards hydrogen production

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I think MOST of us agree we need a base level of dispatchable energy production to meet demand when the sun is not out and the wind isn't blowing. but in the mean time to stabilize energy production, we should mandate that a certain percentage of energy produced by wind and solar should go towards producing some sort of fuel to power combustion power plants (dispatchable power). perhaps one way to do this is to subsidize hydrogen (or what ever is chosen).
to have two days of batteries for the whole country is not feasible, and would also slow the adoption of electric vehicles due to increases commodities to make batteries for electric vehicles.
i would also like to see more DC transmission lines around the country.
 
Almost anything is a better use of resources than hydrogen

See Tony Seba & others as to how much storage is needed in each location. Solar, WInd & Storage - just put in 5 times what a normal day needs (generation) & size storage according to local needs. It's the cheapest option.

Add in High-Voltage transmission (probably DC) & you'd need huge areas to be lacking sun & wind.
 
I think MOST of us agree we need a base level of dispatchable energy production to meet demand when the sun is not out and the wind isn't blowing. but in the mean time to stabilize energy production, we should mandate that a certain percentage of energy produced by wind and solar should go towards producing some sort of fuel to power combustion power plants (dispatchable power).

I... I....I.... .... I honestly don't understand how you don't understand this.... if demand is ~30GW and renewable supply is >30GW and you've pulled in every watt of demand you can with demand response you send the surplus to split water instead of wasting it. No mandate required. Why would anyone not want to get something instead of nothing given the option?

If demand is 30GW and renewables supply is say 20GW and you 'mandate' (2%) 400MW to split water you're basically using 400MW of fools fuel now so you can have ~150MW to use later. Explain to me how that makes ANY sense given how numbers work......

The purpose of renewables is to reduce fuel consumption. If there's demand to be displaced NOW what purpose would it serve to pay a 60% thermodynamic tax to displace less at some point in the future???
 
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For about the next ten years it is definitely cost-effective to build out stationary storage using primarily lithium batteries; alongside increasing the penetration of renewables in the grid; and increasing the proportion of energy delivered as electricity vs as naked-fossils.

Poor round trip efficiencies of hydrogen are such that lithium battery storage is the more economic way to do this, certainly during the next decade. Where hydrogen has an additional value then it can be economically attractive - examples are shipping fuel (ammonia), or in green steel/etc production, or in liquid aerospace fuels. So to an extent doing these projects is also worth it on an R&D and scaling-up basis, but is more commonly just cynical greenwashing of fossil stocks and failing CCS schemes. It is important to carefully sift between these.

My personal opinion is that once we've gone through that (this !) decade we will discover that the economic/technical path dependency wil so greatly favour batteries that the following decade will naturally follow with very few and rare genuinely viable hydrogen cases.

Turning to grid, please understand HVDC is not a silver bullet, people here should have better understanding than journalists. Yes, HVDC is important, but in reality there is a continuum of voltages and currents from lower HV AC to higher HV AC, and only at the very highest of both voltage and current does it make sense to go to HVDC. Almost all use cases do not require, and should not receive, HVDC, as normal HVAC is plenty good enough. Note by the way that USA has a pretty weak (antiquated) grid in many areas which could do with some good old fashioned modernisation via HVAC projects long before thinking about HVDC. But the grid build-out is a balancing act of many factors. Two of the more obvious ones are economics of grid vs economics of storage. Others are who controls the grid vs who controls the storage, and who controls the grid making factories, and who controls the battery making factories, and how quickly can either/both scale up. In batteries everyone is running around doing mine-to-cell studies. In grid not so much, as there are some manufacturing choke points that are controlled by some key players, who are sometimes only only , maybe two, sometimes three boards of directors (or network/chains thereof) making quite serious long term manufacturing capacity decisions for the world. That is quite a different gaming space than the wild west of 20-50 players scrambling in the mosh pit for mine-to-cell capacity, and a very different dynamic results.
 
batteries are only economically viable for peak shaving, where they are earning +$500 per mwh. batteries are too expensive, and don't last long. if batteries are so great, then pay me $10 bucks per kwh for power from my powerwalls i deliver to the grid.

pick a fuel (ammonia) to produce from electric, i don't care. hydrogen is about 70% efficient to make. it is just a must; therefore, must be mandated. but most gas plants can run up to 50% hydrogen.

HVDC cheaper at distances over 600 miles then HVAC. do what is cheaper.
 
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batteries are only economically viable for peak shaving, where they are earning +$500 per mwh. batteries are too expensive, and don't last long. if batteries are so great, then pay me $10 bucks per kwh for power from my powerwalls i deliver to the grid.

pick a fuel (ammonia) to produce from electric, i don't care. hydrogen is about 70% efficient to make. it is just a must; therefore, must be mandated. but most gas plants can run up to 50% hydrogen.

HVDC cheaper at distances over 600 miles then HVAC. do what is cheaper.

Why do you think we would need a mandate??? When it makes sense it's gonna happen.

I... I....I.... .... I honestly don't understand how you don't understand this.... if demand is ~30GW and renewable supply is >30GW and you've pulled in every watt of demand you can with demand response you send the surplus to split water instead of wasting it. No mandate required. Why would anyone not want to get something instead of nothing given the option?
 
Why do you think we would need a mandate??? When it makes sense it's gonna happen.

Oil/gas companies are already looking at green hydrogen from offshore wind farms.
Same way that oil/gas companies power pipelines with solar, and are building wind farms to provide power to offshore oil rigs..

They just ask "Is this cheaper?"

The only mandate you need is "Take the power or pay the generator to curtail", and they find ways to take the power.
 
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Why do you think we would need a mandate??? When it makes sense it's gonna happen.
because the grid is becoming less reliable due to only large investments in renewables, not dispatchable power. companies/people will not switch behaviors until there is a large economic benefit. for example, about 6 years age Brazos electric generation co-op decided not to build a new Peaker power plant they got federally permitted in Austin. it was going to be dual fuel, if they built it it would have prevented the bankruptcy. they have been purchasing wind power at below their cost of production, so they thought bad investment to build something they will not use. in hindsight, it was the worst decision ever.

for example, Texas has a 90GW grid. we would need more then twice that in renewable to be whole renewable, with batteries and hydrogen (made from over production). need ability to run grid off of dispatchable for about two weeks. if we had a large infrastructure to move power around the country, then the period could be reduced.
 
because the grid is becoming less reliable due to only large investments in renewables, not dispatchable power. companies/people will not switch behaviors until there is a large economic benefit. for example, about 6 years age Brazos electric generation co-op decided not to build a new Peaker power plant they got federally permitted in Austin. it was going to be dual fuel, if they built it it would have prevented the bankruptcy. they have been purchasing wind power at below their cost of production, so they thought bad investment to build something they will not use. in hindsight, it was the worst decision ever.

for example, Texas has a 90GW grid. we would need more then twice that in renewable to be whole renewable, with batteries and hydrogen (made from over production). need ability to run grid off of dispatchable for about two weeks. if we had a large infrastructure to move power around the country, then the period could be reduced.

Yes, but as @nwdiver keeps saying, renewables are a way to use less fossil fuel and we're nowhere near "whole renewable". So just build cheap backup.
That they didn't was their mistake.

Hydrogen from catalyzed electrolysis is _a_ way to use the excess, and given that we need hydrogen anyway, seems like it will happen as long as the costs come down.

But for now, we're not even close, and people should stop stressing so much about it. We don't have enough renewables, and when we do there's plenty of other things you can do with the excess generation, on site or on the wider grid. We might even end up with methanation, and hardly using the hydrogen directly.
 
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as I'm saying, we need three times the grid capacity in renewables, to net balance to close to zero. as far as what the fuel of choice will be in the future i don't know, market will figure that out.

look how pitiful wind output has been, been like this for a week as a warm front has been sitting over us.


Capture.PNG
 
as I'm saying, we need three times the grid capacity in renewables, to net balance to close to zero. as far as what the fuel of choice will be in the future i don't know, market will figure that out.

look how pitiful wind output has been, been like this for a week as a warm front has been sitting over us.


View attachment 827091

As I'm saying. Why does it matter? No matter what fuel we use in the future does it not make sense to employ lots of wind and solar to use less of it? As long as the cost of the fuel wind is displacing is more than the cost of the wind energy why does it matter? If every MWh from wind or solar saves you ~$10 in fuel costs why does it matter what the consistency is?

Having solar only helps if there's sun, having wind only helps if there's wind and having a car that gets 100mpge vs 10mpg only helps when you're driving. Why do you view these 3 differently?
 
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...look how pitiful wind output has been, been like this for a week as a warm front has been sitting over us.


View attachment 827091
Regarding wind output, CA wind also dipped quite low in the middle of that day. But for it too, solar PV generation more than exceeded it instantaneously. So no problems there.

For additional resilience and fuel cost savings for all parties, link ERCOT wind and solar up with us and other regional grids.