Petition: AWD to P3-

[phantasms]

My better/smarter half would never go for trading up to the P3 when the AWD is already plenty fast. Maybe if we get enough signatures we'll have a slightly better chance.

Hey, you never know.

Sign the Petition

Best,
Gene

 

[ewoodrick]

She's better/smarter for a reason. Do you have enough money where throwing away $10,000-$20,000 is okay to do?

 

[phantasms]

She's better/smarter for a reason. Do you have enough money where throwing away $10,000-$20,000 is okay to do?

1. I do.
2. I wouldn't.
3. Such a theoretical upgrade I figure would be in the ballpark of $5-6k.

Best,
Gene

 

[timk225]

Won't happen, not enough corporate profit in it.

 

[phantasms]

Won't happen, not enough corporate profit in it.

For better or worse, mostly better, this isn't GM. It should pull in at least a quick $5mill with little work and less complaining than when they lowered the AP prices a few months back.

 

[davidada]

I think there is certainly profit in this as it is purely a software upgrade, cost to Tesla is Minimal.
I think 5k is fair as this is probably the difference minus 20 inch alloys, performance brakes etc.

 

[Knightshade]

Won't happen, not enough corporate profit in it.

it's literally near 100% profit for pushing a button (arguably slight bump in warranty costs, but nowhere near the amount of revenue brought in for essentially 0 work on their part)

Hard to think of anything Tesla could do that is more profit.

 

[davidada]

Agreed and to be honest if I had payed the extra 10 k for the full package it would not bother if an AWD owner paid 5k for the power upgrade.
Lets face it 5k is a lot for a software patch

 

[Krazaak]

It's more than just a software patch though, it's the warranty that goes along with it. Not saying it wouldn't be a good profit option for them, but it will cost them something in the long run.

 

[raptor5244]

A power increase via a software unlock is nice and all but in order to make full use of the additional power it needs to be matched to the supporting hardware. Brakes, tires and suspension all should be upgraded to handle the extra power and provide safety. I would expect that if you add that 100hp/100lb ft of torque to an M3 with Primacy 18 inch tires traction control would kick in and prevent use of the extra torque anyway.

As a M3P owner the suspension and 4000lb+ weight are the weak spots for a true performance model. For a car this capable, it lacks that buttoned down suspension required to make use of all the power available. Straight line, with instant torque and AWD very few cars will be able to keep up with it, however, start throwing throwing this car into corners and you can tell there is a lot of room for improvement. This is fine for 95% of Model 3 owners since the majority of the performance will be used during short acceleration bursts during highway on-ramps but for folks that actually plan to track the car the aftermarket should be able to help.

The Performance model should have come with sport seats so you don't slide all over the place, adaptive shocks with drive modes, stiffer sway bars, bushings and more control over the AWD torque bias and traction control settings. Maybe in the M4P?

 

[Watts_Up]

I wonder why Tesla don't make available some 18" wheels compatible with the Model 3 Performance?
This seems to be a win-win situation for Tesla.

Otherwise you need to buy:
- aftermarket 18" wheels for your Model 3 Performance (which can move away some buyers),
or to buy:
- a non-Performance Model 3.

 

[raptor5244]

I wonder why Tesla don't make available some 18" wheels compatible with the Model 3 Performance?
This seems to be a win-win situation for Tesla.

Otherwise you need to buy:
- aftermarket 18" wheels for your Model 3 Performance (which can move away some buyers),
or to buy:
- a non-Performance Model 3.

Are you saying for range purposes? Appearance-wise the 18's don't really fill out the wheel wells on these cars, which would not bode well for a Performance model. My question is why does the Performance model have the same width tire as the RWD and AWD? I think the Performance model should have gone with a 19/20" 265 wide tire. It would look more aggressive and offer more overall grip.

 

[moridin2002]

A power increase via a software unlock is nice and all but in order to make full use of the additional power it needs to be matched to the supporting hardware. Brakes, tires and suspension all should be upgraded to handle the extra power and provide safety. I would expect that if you add that 100hp/100lb ft of torque to an M3 with Primacy 18 inch tires traction control would kick in and prevent use of the extra torque anyway.

As a M3P owner the suspension and 4000lb+ weight are the weak spots for a true performance model. For a car this capable, it lacks that buttoned down suspension required to make use of all the power available. Straight line, with instant torque and AWD very few cars will be able to keep up with it, however, start throwing throwing this car into corners and you can tell there is a lot of room for improvement. This is fine for 95% of Model 3 owners since the majority of the performance will be used during short acceleration bursts during highway on-ramps but for folks that actually plan to track the car the aftermarket should be able to help.

The Performance model should have come with sport seats so you don't slide all over the place, adaptive shocks with drive modes, stiffer sway bars, bushings and more control over the AWD torque bias and traction control settings. Maybe in the M4P?

Tesla sold Performance versions of the car with 18" wheels and the Primacy tires in the beginning, hence the P3D- moniker.

 

[raptor5244]

Tesla sold Performance versions of the car with 18" wheels and the Primacy tires in the beginning, hence the P3D- moniker.

Understood, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea and look how long it lasted. AFAIK there is no Track Mode option for the P-. We are talking about a car that can pull off 0-60 in 3.2 sec and 1/4 in 11.7s. Those times are on par with 650hp ZL1 Camaros, Corvettes, Challengers, etc. Putting that level of performance on a set of Michelin Primacy "Prius" tires is just silly talk.

 

[Knightshade]

Understood, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea and look how long it lasted. AFAIK there is no Track Mode option for the P-.

Except, there is.


The P3D- has all the P software options, but came with the same tires, wheels, and suspension as the AWD.

There's nothing magic about the P3D+ extras that make it 'safer' for street use at all except the better tires, which most owners will move to on their first change on the 18s anyway if they care about performance or stopping distance


And for track use most folks have found a non + car with aftermarket parts does better than a + car with factory "performance" parts does.

U
We are talking about a car that can pull off 0-60 in 3.2 sec and 1/4 in 11.7s. Those times are on par with 650hp ZL1 Camaros, Corvettes, Challengers, etc. Putting that level of performance on a set of Michelin Primacy "Prius" tires is just silly talk.

And yet- Tesla not only did that in the P3D-, it ran the exact same times with those tires.

Because the P isn't traction limited for acceleration.

 

[raptor5244]

Except, there is.


The P3D- has all the P software options, but came with the same tires, wheels, and suspension as the AWD.

There's nothing magic about the P3D+ extras that make it 'safer' for street use at all except the better tires, which most owners will move to on their first change on the 18s anyway if they care about performance or stopping distance


And for track use most folks have found a non + car with aftermarket parts does better than a + car with factory "performance" parts does.

And yet- Tesla not only did that in the P3D-, it ran the exact same times with those tires.

Because the P isn't traction limited for acceleration.

My point is as you make a car more powerful you are supposed to improve its braking, tire grip and beef up the suspension as necessary to make use of all that power. For street use I agree it will not make much difference because you can't/won't really reach the cars limits on the street anyway.

Agreed on the the aftermarket but potentially voiding the warranty on a car such as this is a scary proposition considering the battery cost, etc. , which is why a factory version is ideal for some. The brake pads that come with the MP3 are definitely street pads as they have no bite to them. Great for low noise and dust but not great for spirited driving.

As for the 0-60 stuff, if the times on Primacy tires are the same as the PS4s then the size and weight difference may be off-setting it somewhat but I have a hard time believing it. I think that the car is still traction control/software limited it still. The traction control system is tuned such that you think you are not traction limited but if we could turn it off we would quickly find out. We need a better understanding of how these traction control systems work with electric motors vs. ICE based cars.

As for overall tire performance, here was a quick test done between the 18s and the 19s on the Model 3 and it showed improvement in acceleration, braking and lateral grip.

 

[Knightshade]

My point is as you make a car more powerful you are supposed to improve its braking

Why?

Usually when people make this claim it's because they don't understand what the brakes actually do, or what actually stops the car.

Once you move your foot from accelerator to brake, the car doesn't care how many HP the vehicle puts out.


Unless you're running the car on a race track (and I don't mean a drag strip) or you're involved in the chase scene from a Bourne film, there's no benefit to "upgraded" brakes.... and that's true regardless of the power of the car.

If you are racing on a track then there are benefits to upgraded brakes that are true regardless of the power of the car

So either way power doesn't change anything.

, tire grip

But again- that benefits all cars, regardless of power.

And since the car isn't traction limited even with the stock 18 all seasons, the "more power" thing is irrelevant here again.

and beef up the suspension as necessary to make use of all that power.

Again, this simply isn't a limitation on even the non-P suspension...and there's no evidence at all that the P+ suspenion does anything useful to "make use" of the added power- since again, the P+ and P- cars put up about the same actual performance numbers.

Agreed on the the aftermarket but potentially voiding the warranty on a car such as this is a scary proposition considering the battery cost, etc.

It's also an imaginary proposition since that's not how warranties work.

I suggest you google The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act

Changing your tires or shocks won't have any impact whatsoever on your battery warranty.

As for the 0-60 stuff, if the times on Primacy tires are the same as the PS4s then the size and weight difference may be off-setting it somewhat but I have a hard time believing it.

Great thing about facts are they remain true even if you don't believe in them

Tons of folks have tested both the P3D- and P3D+.... and some have even swapped PS4S tires onto the 18s....none of it made any significant difference to 0-60 times.

Because the car is not traction limited regardless of the wheel/tire combo.

As for overall tire performance, here was a quick test done between the 18s and the 19s on the Model 3 and it showed improvement in acceleration, braking and lateral grip.

I already said better tires would improve braking and handling- that's true regardless of the power

In fact the car in your video is the LR RWD- the slowest Model 3 on earth at the time the video was made.

Their 0-60 testing seems wrong though- the 18s were slower than even Teslas listed time for the car (with 18s) and we know Teslas times are all sandbagged except for the P...most car mags were testing that car (on 18s) in the 4.8-4.9 range...miles from the 5.3 they measured.


I suppose since they were testing a 2WD version of the car there MIGHT be a traction limit compared to AWD cars- but I've never seen any other evidence of one, and again everyone else on earth who tested the RWD with 18s got much faster times (as fast or faster than they got with the 19s)

 

[phantasms]

FWIW my car is slightly faster with my 18” stock aero wheels on Scottozero snow tires than with my 19” wheels on PS4S high performance Summer tires. I have 50 or so Vbox runs on both sets. This fact is undeniable and confirmed by other owners.

Best,
Gene

 

[raptor5244]

Why?

Usually when people make this claim it's because they don't understand what the brakes actually do, or what actually stops the car.

Once you move your foot from accelerator to brake, the car doesn't care how many HP the vehicle puts out.


Unless you're running the car on a race track (and I don't mean a drag strip) or you're involved in the chase scene from a Bourne film, there's no benefit to "upgraded" brakes.... and that's true regardless of the power of the car.

If you are racing on a track then there are benefits to upgraded brakes that are true regardless of the power of the car

So either way power doesn't change anything.

I know, we are speaking in term of performance here. If we are talking about driving the kids to school and pickup groceries then there is nothing to talk about.

Again, this simply isn't a limitation on even the non-P suspension...and there's no evidence at all that the P+ suspenion does anything useful to "make use" of the added power- since again, the P+ and P- cars put up about the same actual performance numbers.

Fully agree here, in fact I think the suspension on the P is the weak spot. At this price point it should really come with an adaptive suspension with track tuning. Don't get me wrong it performs well but it could be so much better. One thing that GM does well is chassis engineering and suspension tuning.

It's also an imaginary proposition since that's not how warranties work.

I suggest you google The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act

Changing your tires or shocks won't have any impact whatsoever on your battery warranty.

I am familiar with it and have modded many cars over the years. That said, most won't want to have that conversation with a service center and if they challenge you you have to lawyer up. Pay to play mentality when modding.

Tons of folks have tested both the P3D- and P3D+.... and some have even swapped PS4S tires onto the 18s....none of it made any significant difference to 0-60 times.

Because the car is not traction limited regardless of the wheel/tire combo.

I think we feel the car is not traction limited because of the how fast the traction control systems work on electric motors vs. ICE counterparts. They are able to get so much more out of those non-performance tires by modulating the torque so quickly.

Here is a good explanation -

"EVs can modulate power in under 10 milliseconds, whereas an ICE car has a control loop that is more like 100–250 milliseconds. The way traction control in an ICE car works, it first cuts the throttle, fuel injection, and/or retards the ignition timing to reduce torque output. An ICE motor is an air pump, and if it’s turning at, say, 3000 RPM, that’s 50 rotations - and hundreds of firing events - per second. Torque output doesn’t cut the millisecond you close the throttle or cut the fuel - the engine still has enough air for several revolutions. And once you re-open the throttle, you don’t get torque back instantly - the intake tract has to fill and fuel needs to squirt. It’s fast, but still takes a fraction of a second.

In a Tesla, none of these lags exist. All you have is the time lag of calculation, and whatever minuscule time lag exists in the motor controllers. Torque ramps down, and ramps up, much more quickly.

And it’s widely acknowledged that Tesla is just head and shoulders above every other manufacturer in controller and converter designs. Their systems have very little lag.

That’s how Teslas achieve such preternatural 0–60 times for their rated level of horsepower, despite having tires of conventional size and compound."

A quick search showed folks have done this before and as expected without the nannies the car with its instant torque will roast the tires if you wanted to. I am not suggesting that this is a wise thing to do but the point is that the superior traction control system is what appears to be responsible for the traction and it is so good that it makes economy tires appear to perform much better than on an ICE car.

How to turn off Traction Control on a Model S

Pulling the ESP fuse

 

[raptor5244]

FWIW my car is slightly faster with my 18” stock aero wheels on Scottozero snow tires than with my 19” wheels on PS4S high performance Summer tires. I have 50 or so Vbox runs on both sets. This fact is undeniable and confirmed by other owners.

Best,
Gene

I believe it because after researching how this car puts power to the ground it is more about the traction control system vs. the tire grip. Both work together obviously but the system modulates torque so quickly that it can adapt and adjust to wheel spin so fast across all 4 corners that it is a non-issue and makes good tires seem great. If you couple that with smaller, lighter 18" wheels it would make sense it would be a little faster. This makes me wonder if there is even power reserve on tap in these Model 3s.