Petition: AWD to P3-

[dfwatt]

Thanks. It appears that AWD combined with the advanced "digital" traction control systems are able to control the torque so well that they make ECO tires a non-issue for traction on this car. It is quite amazing actually that you can have over 450lb ft of instant torque and not even screech the tires.

When compared to traditional torque management systems on ICE cars where you have to retard timing and use other mechanical methods to control wheel slip the tires size and compound becomes so much more important to get traction.

Well it's an interesting question as to whether or not in fact traction control is actually being applied to launch or whether the system simply doesn't have the requisite torque to spin Michelin PS4s. It's pretty clear that in snowy and very slippery conditions traction control is on and being applied, but the speculation has been that the rear motor which has a switched reluctance/permanent magnet system with vulnerability to torque ripple may not either have adequate torque at super low RPM to spin the tires (unlike the induction motors on the Model S) or whether there is some kind of basic current reduction being applied at low rpm. Ludicrous mode appears to apply some kind of battery heating to maximize potential current to the inverters. Model 3 does not have that. So it appears that the Model 3 has both a different drive system that may not create as much low rpm torque, as well as a cost-saving deletion around ludicrous mode. One would think that the latter is just a software issue, and you have to wonder if the preconditioning of the battery while you're on the way to the supercharger could serve the same purpose, but nobody has shown that that type of preconditioning actually improves launch torque or 0 to 60 times.

Bottom line – we're still kind of in the dark about why the Model 3 can't launch with the same or at least closer to an approximation of the same force as the Model S. It's probably a combination of factors including the difference between Induction versus switched reluctance, current limitations on the inverters in the M3, and perhaps even a deliberate limiting of launch torque by Tesla to maintain a gap between its flagship and the Model 3.

Your guess is as good as mine – we just don't know.

 

[Watts_Up]

I think MPP is running 265s on 19 x 9.5 all around

This might be right to have square mounting for the 4WD.
Do you have a link for th2 265 19" ?

Those are 18x10.5 inch wheels front and rear, so those tires are way wider than 275. Probably 295 or 305.

In the case of the LR 2WD, in July 2018, in the following video at 5:32, the tires used were:

Advent RG with Michelin 19 x 10 (275) in the rear and 19 x 9 (245) in the front

 

[golfpilot]

Well it's an interesting question as to whether or not in fact traction control is actually being applied to launch or whether the system simply doesn't have the requisite torque to spin Michelin PS4s. It's pretty clear that in snowy and very slippery conditions traction control is on and being applied, but the speculation has been that the rear motor which has a switched reluctance/permanent magnet system with vulnerability to torque ripple may not either have adequate torque at super low RPM to spin the tires (unlike the induction motors on the Model S) or whether there is some kind of basic current reduction being applied at low rpm. Ludicrous mode appears to apply some kind of battery heating to maximize potential current to the inverters. Model 3 does not have that. So it appears that the Model 3 has both a different drive system that may not create as much low rpm torque, as well as a cost-saving deletion around ludicrous mode. One would think that the latter is just a software issue, and you have to wonder if the preconditioning of the battery while you're on the way to the supercharger could serve the same purpose, but nobody has shown that that type of preconditioning actually improves launch torque or 0 to 60 times.

Bottom line – we're still kind of in the dark about why the Model 3 can't launch with the same or at least closer to an approximation of the same force as the Model S. It's probably a combination of factors including the difference between Induction versus switched reluctance, current limitations on the inverters in the M3, and perhaps even a deliberate limiting of launch torque by Tesla to maintain a gap between its flagship and the Model 3.

Your guess is as good as mine – we just don't know.

These cars have lower margins than the S and were thrown into the wild with relatively little testing and the ability to unlocked performance to the whole fleet with just an OTA software update. If they sold something and later found out that they had to send an update decreasing the performance to protect the warranty durability, people would freak out and lawsuits would start. Get a couple years of data and give people a little extra performance as they feel they can without adding warranty repairs, they will. Less people will start lawsuits with an increase in performance than with a decrease.

 

[raptor5244]

Well it's an interesting question as to whether or not in fact traction control is actually being applied to launch or whether the system simply doesn't have the requisite torque to spin Michelin PS4s. It's pretty clear that in snowy and very slippery conditions traction control is on and being applied, but the speculation has been that the rear motor which has a switched reluctance/permanent magnet system with vulnerability to torque ripple may not either have adequate torque at super low RPM to spin the tires (unlike the induction motors on the Model S) or whether there is some kind of basic current reduction being applied at low rpm. Ludicrous mode appears to apply some kind of battery heating to maximize potential current to the inverters. Model 3 does not have that. So it appears that the Model 3 has both a different drive system that may not create as much low rpm torque, as well as a cost-saving deletion around ludicrous mode. One would think that the latter is just a software issue, and you have to wonder if the preconditioning of the battery while you're on the way to the supercharger could serve the same purpose, but nobody has shown that that type of preconditioning actually improves launch torque or 0 to 60 times.

Bottom line – we're still kind of in the dark about why the Model 3 can't launch with the same or at least closer to an approximation of the same force as the Model S. It's probably a combination of factors including the difference between Induction versus switched reluctance, current limitations on the inverters in the M3, and perhaps even a deliberate limiting of launch torque by Tesla to maintain a gap between its flagship and the Model 3.

Your guess is as good as mine – we just don't know.

Thanks for the feedback. My guess is that as more and more performance enthusiasts convert from ICE to EV and more performance EV competition starts showing up we will learn more and more. At this point Tesla doesn't really need to share their intellectual property but they will when competitors show up and start sharing their EV speeds and feeds. With ICE cars we compare displacement, ported heads, compression ratios, injectors, gearing, differentials, drive modes, etc. Now in the EV world, I am starting to get up to speed on induction vs. reluctance motors, torque ripple, inverters, optimum batter temperature, etc. It sounds like the next gen Mustang will introduce an all electric model.

New Details Emerge On Ford Mustang-Based Electric Crossover

 

[caskater47]

I'm a P3d- owner that has replaced my rotors, brakes pads, brake lines and wheels. I have handily beat many P3D+ cars on the track. My 0-60 times are faster than stock (thanks to lightweight forged wheels mainly). My car was physically identical to an AWD save for the P software when I took delivery.

While there's no technical reason why Tesla couldn't unlock AWDs to use the P software, Tesla HQ has a hardline "you got what you paid for" mentality that makes it unlikely they will ever offer it. They also refused to offer PUP installs to us P3d- folks despite service centers being ready and willing to do it many months ago. That's why I went the aftermarket route. Although I think I came out ahead in the end. My car has better parts than stock and I paid less for it.

 

[dfwatt]

I'm a P3d- owner that has replaced my rotors, brakes pads, brake lines and wheels. I have handily beat many P3D+ cars on the track. My 0-60 times are faster than stock (thanks to lightweight forged wheels mainly). My car was physically identical to an AWD save for the P software when I took delivery.

While there's no technical reason why Tesla couldn't unlock AWDs to use the P software, Tesla HQ has a hardline "you got what you paid for" mentality that makes it unlikely they will ever offer it. They also refused to offer PUP installs to us P3d- folks despite service centers being ready and willing to do it many months ago. That's why I went the aftermarket route. Although I think I came out ahead in the end. My car has better parts than stock and I paid less for it.

Agreed. I don't remember what the all-wheel drive to P upgrade cost but I think it was something like five grand wasn't it? And then I think but I'm not sure it was another five grand to get the 20 inch wheels and upgraded brakes? For that amount of money ($5k) you can instead easily upgrade rotors, throw on the MPP sport coilovers and even pick up a set of lightweight forged Wheels, and the unplugged performance front spoiler. That puts you way ahead of the stock performance version in my book. Although picking up a set of those 235 / 35 - 20 Michelin Pilot Sport 4S would put you over 5K.

 

[raptor5244]

Some cool videos under the M3

 

[sixela]

but the speculation has been that the rear motor which has a switched reluctance/permanent magnet system with vulnerability to torque ripple

The only speculation I ever saw was from a video from someone who didn't understand a thing about modern electric drives units. Btw, some Tesla marketing documentation talks about S being “synchronous” and not switched, although these days the software that drives the inverter can make the lines between different types of permanent magnet drives very blurry.

But there have been oodles of RWD LR dyno tests and the “vulnerability to ripple torque” is demonstrably a fable (and the P never drives its rear engine outside of the RWD LR envelope, with the same max torque and max power.)

 

[dfwatt]

Thanks for the feedback. My guess is that as more and more performance enthusiasts convert from ICE to EV and more performance EV competition starts showing up we will learn more and more. At this point Tesla doesn't really need to share their intellectual property but they will when competitors show up and start sharing their EV speeds and feeds. With ICE cars we compare displacement, ported heads, compression ratios, injectors, gearing, differentials, drive modes, etc. Now in the EV world, I am starting to get up to speed on induction vs. reluctance motors, torque ripple, inverters, optimum batter temperature, etc. It sounds like the next gen Mustang will introduce an all electric model.

New Details Emerge On Ford Mustang-Based Electric Crossover

Yep. All the so-called "serious" auto manufacturers are scrambling to put out a competitive product, essentially having been caught with their pants down so to speak by Tesla's enormous success. Toyota, Honda, the VW Audi group, Ford, GM, and Nissan all privately I suspect have had discussions in their boardrooms about how they misread the market and underestimated Tesla. The problem is that the Press still doesn't really understand Tesla's lead. You see lots of Masters of the Universe marketing types predicting that in short order anyone of or all of the above group will quickly pass Tesla and eat their lunch with putative "Tesla killers." Tesla is way out ahead for a lot of good reasons not the least of which is their enormous lead in building a charging infrastructure, but also their lead in Battery Technology, Electronics and software, and their enormous bravery in having taken some enormous risks that paid off. I'd predict that within 10 years virtually all new cars except the very cheapest will be EV

 

[raptor5244]

Yep. All the so-called "serious" auto manufacturers are scrambling to put out a competitive product, essentially having been caught with their pants down so to speak by Tesla's enormous success. Toyota, Honda, the VW Audi group, Ford, GM, and Nissan all privately I suspect have had discussions in their boardrooms about how they misread the market and underestimated Tesla. The problem is that the Press still doesn't really understand Tesla's lead. You see lots of Masters of the Universe marketing types predicting that in short order anyone of or all of the above group will quickly pass Tesla and eat their lunch with putative "Tesla killers." Tesla is way out ahead for a lot of good reasons not the least of which is their enormous lead in building a charging infrastructure, but also their lead in Battery Technology, Electronics and software, and their enormous bravery in having taken some enormous risks that paid off. I'd predict that within 10 years virtually all new cars except the very cheapest will be EV

Agreed. Also, the other manufacturers have to cannibalize their existing business in a lot of ways as they convert from ICE to EV. Think about the revenue stream dealers get from ICE based vehicles. I am not sure how they will survive in the future with EVs that basically only need tire rotations and brake pads every 100k miles. Maybe just repair service? By cutting out the traditional dealers Tesla makes more profit per car.

It will be interesting to see how fast the traditional manufacturers can make this transition. I think they may have a leg up on chassis/suspension design and manufacturing but lag significantly behind Tesla in motor, battery and software/UI design. They also have to build an EV that looks half decent.

 

[one4spl]

Putting that level of performance on a set of Michelin Primacy "Prius" tires is just silly talk.

Not only did they do it before - they are shipping P3D- cars to Australia and the UK right now. We only get the SR+, P3D- and P3D+. No LR RWD or AWD.

 

[one4spl]

They list Track Mode as exclusive to the P3D+ though.

(there isn't an edit function on here?!)

 

[Msjulie]

They list Track Mode as exclusive to the P3D+ though.

Interesting and it does make sense they want to encourage sales of the more expensive version.

(there isn't an edit function on here?!)

You can edit up to some minutes after the post..

 

[Vaillant]

I signed the petition. I’d gladly pay several thousand dollars to upgrade the acceleration of my LR AWD.

Git r dun, Elon!

 

[MagnusMako]

Thanks. It appears that AWD combined with the advanced "digital" traction control systems are able to control the torque so well that they make ECO tires a non-issue for traction on this car. It is quite amazing actually that you can have over 450lb ft of instant torque and not even screech the tires.

When compared to traditional torque management systems on ICE cars where you have to retard timing and use other mechanical methods to control wheel slip the tires size and compound becomes so much more important to get traction.

I test drove a Chevy Bolt once. The amount of tire squeel when you launched it was hilarious. Even going 10 or 15 mph you could get the tires to spin. I'm not sure if it's a testament to Tesla's torque management being so good or Chevy's being sub-par or otherwise but it sure played part in me deciding against buying one and holding out for the Model 3.

 

[raptor5244]

I test drove a Chevy Bolt once. The amount of tire squeel when you launched it was hilarious. Even going 10 or 15 mph you could get the tires to spin. I'm not sure if it's a testament to Tesla's torque management being so good or Chevy's being sub-par or otherwise but it sure played part in me deciding against buying one and holding out for the Model 3.

Funny. I personally believe it is a combination of AWD and the super fast torque management controllers these cars have. On an ICE car the torque management process has to pull engine timing to reduce power and leverage other mechanical methods to manage traction to the wheels. The Tesla torque management controllers are so fast that they are able to modulate the torque to the electric motors and wheels so quickly that they make Primacy ECO tires seem super human off the line. Imagine the system is able to detect wheel slip so quickly that it can pulse power to the wheels on and off to reduce tire spin. It is kind of like ABS brakes, where the brakes pulsate so quickly as to not lock up the tires. Also, there are no low gears with torque multiplication like ICE cars have.

That said, the Primacy tires show their limits in the corners and under hard braking though. Tesla can't fix the limits of that yet.

 

[BrakeDome]

I signed the petition. I’d gladly pay several thousand dollars to upgrade the acceleration of my LR AWD.

Git r dun, Elon!

Several?? I’d pay a couple thousand, but not more than that

I did sign as well though

 

[c041v]

I signed the petition. I’d gladly pay several thousand dollars to upgrade the acceleration of my LR AWD.

Git r dun, Elon!

Just found this thread and I feel the exact same way. I love my car, but the P was simply too much at the time (CDN $ over here) and it was still a $20k+ differential. That gap has significantly narrowed now, and it’s the often touted pure profit for Tesla!

 

[mswlogo]

Agreed. I don't remember what the all-wheel drive to P upgrade cost but I think it was something like five grand wasn't it? And then I think but I'm not sure it was another five grand to get the 20 inch wheels and upgraded brakes? For that amount of money ($5k) you can instead easily upgrade rotors, throw on the MPP sport coilovers and even pick up a set of lightweight forged Wheels, and the unplugged performance front spoiler. That puts you way ahead of the stock performance version in my book. Although picking up a set of those 235 / 35 - 20 Michelin Pilot Sport 4S would put you over 5K.

It was $10k for the torque (which included free super charging). And an additional $5k for wheels and brakes. Later they made wheels and brakes included for the $10k. And offered $5k refunds to folks that paid $10k + $5k as well as those who paid $10k only. You lost free super charging if you accepted the refund.

 

[lbowroom]

I think all you guys have to do is wait. Rumor has it that there is significant performance in reserve. When someone releases a competitor to the performance, Tesla will release more power. Then power for the AWD can cascade down a rung.