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Petition to remove the 200,000 US sales cap for the $7,500 EV Tax Credit

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I wholly disagree with making energy costly because who do you *really* think will be paying for this tax? It will simply be passed down to the consumer using one method or another. This added financial burden only puts up a roadblock for the EV revolution that some so desperately desire. I'm also skeptical of what the climate models predict.
We'll probably have a hard time agreeing, then.

I'm specifically suggesting that the costs get passed down. Fossil fuel energy is subsidized, which makes it cheap. And in my phrasing, subsidized means not paying for the externalities. Electric rates from fossil fuels should be much more expensive. This won't hurt EV sales. On the contrary, since gasoline will also be subject to the tax, EVs will become rapidly more appealing. And pressure will come from the consumer to the utility to start getting energy from less expensive (read: non fossil/carbon polluting) sources. In some areas, rooftop solar will become a very obvious win.
 
The purpose of the tax rebate is to encourage the manufacturing and selling of EV's , So If 100,000 people sign a petition to extend the tax rebate on EV's, Then you could argue the the tax rebate purpose has succeeded and the extension is not needed..... But i want save 7500 so ill probably sign it :)
 
My understanding is that it is an unfunded tax reduction, so no other taxes were increased to pay for it. Unfunded it either contributes directly to the deficit/debt or it is made up by cutting funding to other programs. I would love to see it extended if it was funded by eliminating/reducing subsidies to the oil & gas industries.

It's "kinda" unfunded. Buy a $40,000 EV. The state gets at least $3000 in sales tax, and constant never-ending registration tax.

At best it's partially funded. People can buy a $20,000 car instead and reduce the sales tax in 1/2.

I contend it's more than 80% funded. Tesla or BMW 3xx? Count the sales tax difference.
 
My understanding is that it is an unfunded tax reduction, so no other taxes were increased to pay for it. Unfunded it either contributes directly to the deficit/debt or it is made up by cutting funding to other programs. I would love to see it extended if it was funded by eliminating/reducing subsidies to the oil & gas industries.

I do not disagree that there is not a back side to this income tax credit today. What I do not recall, and where I am too lazy to research is that when this income tax credit was first passed by Congress several years ago, they may have made some sort of compromise in another income tax area in order for this income tax credit to be "revenue neutral." The complementary "increase" might very well have been so subtle or arcane that no one really noticed. This happens a lot.
 
We'll probably have a hard time agreeing, then.

I'm specifically suggesting that the costs get passed down. Fossil fuel energy is subsidized, which makes it cheap. And in my phrasing, subsidized means not paying for the externalities. Electric rates from fossil fuels should be much more expensive. This won't hurt EV sales. On the contrary, since gasoline will also be subject to the tax, EVs will become rapidly more appealing. And pressure will come from the consumer to the utility to start getting energy from less expensive (read: non fossil/carbon polluting) sources. In some areas, rooftop solar will become a very obvious win.
Wow, so let them eat cake in other words with that double whammy in carbon credits you're going to force the plebes to pay. A gas tax simply makes EVERYTHING more expensive including basic staples of sustenance.

And renewables aren't cheaper, are they, questionable claims of FF subsidies aside (which are super fine of course if the energy is labeled as "renewable")? Wind is getting there (and may be less according to recent estimates), but solar isn't there yet last I checked (the Ivanpah debacle is another revealing exercise in public waste). Electricity (and gas) necessarily skyrocketing to hopefully prevent the earth from heating up a few more degrees will simply result in a lot of disconnects if not rolling blackouts and a hefty number of deaths to match. If you can convince me that death count would be smaller than that caused by increased atmospheric CO2 (no matter what draconian regulation you enact, the CO2 levels will continue to rise), maybe I'd come around to your way of thinking, but it's going to require a lot more than what I deem as a faulty computer model (man's hubris has no match). I also have to wonder if you would be equally opposed to hydrogen subsidies. That CARB crew is so desperate they have to give it away.

I'm infuriated right now so I better close this out before I say something I regret, but this attitude from those who can easily afford what amounts to a luxury EV and a solar PV system without breaking a sweat financially are far too willing to get the state to punish their less well-to-do brethren, and it reeks.
 
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@vinnie97, you are unintentionally (I hope) misrepresenting my position.

I think you must be unfamiliar with a revenue neutral carbon tax. There are various proposals, but they revolve around a concept called fee and dividend. The fees charged to the providers would be represented in the price to the consumer, but they wouldn't go towards any government program - they'd be distributed as dividends to the citizens in order to make up the difference. There are a few articles describing the potential effects - HERE and HERE, for instance (though you can find many others online simply). You can also look at this breakdown of some of the results of BC's implementation.

The interesting thing about the dividend is that it's often structured to help the ones who need the help the most. It's the opposite of "let them eat cake," you see. And it provides a true economic cost to goods, so individuals can choose. At that point, of course renewables are cost competitive.

I can't address your issues with climate science - that's beyond the scope of our argument. I just wanted to be clear that I was not suggesting increasing the net cost to low-income consumers. On the contrary, I'm talking about increasing the net cost to higher income consumers in order to allow pricing to reflect externalities.

CCL has a breakdown of fee-and-dividend here as well.

Oh, and Elon himself thinks it's the right move.
 
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It's "kinda" unfunded. Buy a $40,000 EV. The state gets at least $3000 in sales tax, and constant never-ending registration tax..

Federal Income Tax Credits (the $7500) and State Sales Tax are completely different pots of money paying for completely different things. Federal money funds the Federal Gov & all it's programs. State sales tax revenue stays in the State and pays for state stuff only.
 
My understanding is that it is an unfunded tax reduction, so no other taxes were increased to pay for it. Unfunded it either contributes directly to the deficit/debt or it is made up by cutting funding to other programs. I would love to see it extended if it was funded by eliminating/reducing subsidies to the oil & gas industries.
What happens, for example if you owe the government $10,000 with this program you now only owe them $2,500. Someone is making up that lost income owed to the federal government. The current congress being republicans will never go for anything which increases taxes. Matter of fact they are looking for programs which if eliminated would increase revenue without increases taxes. This program fits that category. Therefore this makes it a prime program for elimination. As I said there were two separate bills in the last couple of years which would have either extended the 200,000 or increase the rebate to $10,000 both sponsored by democrats that never left the subcommittee as they had no chance of passing the current house or senate. Maybe with a change of leadership in congress the bills may have a small chance but doubtful they will have any chance now and it doesn't even look for they are actively being pursued. There is almost no chance there will be a change with leadership with congress with the 2016 election. The first years this could happen would be during 2018 for 2019 or 2020 for the 2021 year. Then add one to two years for a bill to pass Congress probably attached to a appropriation bill. As the original person I responded to indicated it is more of a chance it could go other way if people continue to push for it to be expanded.
 
Federal Income Tax Credits (the $7500) and State Sales Tax are completely different pots of money paying for completely different things. Federal money funds the Federal Gov & all it's programs. State sales tax revenue stays in the State and pays for state stuff only.

When I realized I was replying to the wrong thread, the edit function was already disabled. My bad.
 
What happens, for example if you owe the government $10,000 with this program you now only owe them $2,500. Someone is making up that lost income owed to the federal government. The current congress being republicans will never go for anything which increases taxes. Matter of fact they are looking for programs which if eliminated would increase revenue without increases taxes.

Yes a tax credit reduces your tax burden, but in your example, the $10,000 is what you owe the gov for your share of taxes. If they give you back $7500 to reward you for buying an electric car, then that is the gov's money that they are giving you, or lost income to them. I think we are saying the same thing :). I don't want to get too political on a car forum, but yes I agree that Republicans consistently do not want to raise taxes, and tend to side with big oil over the environment, so a change in Congress will be the only way to potentially extend/start any green energy program. I think the best for the environment and the future would be to take the money the gov spends on oil/gas subsidies that are not needed because they are very profitable, and spend that money on green energy technology development, implementation, and incentives. Just think the difference it would make in using fossil fuels if every house had some sort of green energy production appropriate to their location. My dream is to have my home & cars that are completely energy self sufficient and built with sustainable materials.
 
I'm not necessarily in favor of completely removing the cap, but I do have some issue with the way the law was written to begin with. Providing each manufacturer with a set number of credits is going to result in a phenomenon where the companies that have embraced sustainable transportation and successfully brought it to market are going to find themselves at a competitive disadvantage in the coming years. Meanwhile, companies that have done nothing on this front will be able to bring vehicles to market for thousands less than their innovating competitors. The end result is penalizing the market leaders that are succeeding at bringing to market what the tax credit was designed to do in the first place.

IMO the law should have been written with a hard cap on units across ALL manufacturers. Once that number has been reached, the credits phase out uniformly, for all manufacturers. This encourages competition and innovation and maintains a level market playing field for all manufacturers.

Unfortunately, given the US political climate, fixing this after the fact is going to be all but impossible.
 
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There is no EV on the market today that I would buy anyway. ;) I would never consider a Leaf since I'm in the desert and am quite aware of their piss-poor battery cooling management not to mention their already limited range. I haven't read as much about the 1st generation Volts in this capacity but have found them intriguing. Since I do have solar PV, I can use that to offset oil spikes, which is a (more selfish) reason why I would like an EV. I have a hybrid that's nearly paid off, and I'm considering going against my better judgement and putting down a $1k deposit (0% APR for 20 months) on the 3, fiscally responsible or not. Uncertainty drives me batty.

I drive a 1st generation Volt in the desert and leave it parked in the 110 degree sun for 10 hours a day at work. Unplugged mind you, just like an ICE car. No battery issues from heat.

Volts are bad in the winter. That really saps your range, especially when you are heating the cabin while in EV mode. During the winter, I often drive in the 30 degree morning with the ICE running to get the "free" heat from the engine and home in the 50 degree afternoon on the battery.
 
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And renewables aren't cheaper, are they...
On the whole they are cheaper. This is actually quite complicated and I've spent hundreds of hours researching and analyzing it. This is not investment advice; don't sue me if you invest based on it and I'm wrong. :) But basically renewables are cheaper.

The first thing to understand is what competes with what. Solar doesn't compete directly with oil.

Oil competes with electric cars for transportation fuel. Electric cars are already cheaper to operate; it's just a matter of making them cheaper upfront.
Oil competes with natural gas (methane) and biofuels for a chemical feedstock, and oil is losing; it's too expensive even at $20/bbl.
Oil competes with natgas and electricity for home heating. Oil has already priced itself out of this market. Natgas is still cheaper than electricity, but not much cheaper -- electrical heating has gotten much more efficient over the years. If the natgas price heads back to $8, heating with an electric heat pump will be cheaper.
Natgas competes with electricity for cooking, but it's a marginal, tiny market.

Oil generates electricity in Hawaii, but only islands do this. Oil is just too expensive to generate electricity with; everything else is cheaper.

Coal, by contrast, "thermal" coal, is basically used only for electrical generation. (The "metallurgical" coal used for steel is literally a different type of coal and does not compete in the same market.) Coal prices at the minehead are dropping to zero due to lack of demand, but coal prices at the power plant remain high, because the coal has to be *transported*, and carrying rocks around is expensive. The railroads have other more valuable things they would prefer to run on their train lines and the transportation cost of coal is rising, not falling.

In electrical generation, solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, coal, and natgas compete. Oil has priced itself out of the market even at $20/bbl. These include both old *fully paid off plants* and *new plants*. Obviously fully-paid-off solar, wind, and hydro cost basically nothing -- they generate electricity nearly for free. The others have costs.

New nuclear has priced itself out of the market completely. Old nuclear has basically priced itself out of the market too, but they're desparately squablling over trying to get subsidies to keep going.

New coal has priced itself out of the market as well (remember those transportation costs?).

Old coal has mostly priced itself out of the market too. In addition to the transportation costs, old coal plants are mostly *less efficient* than new coal plants (waste more). They're also trying to get government subsidies to keep operating.

There isn't much new hydro because we've used all the good hydro locations.

New onshore wind power in good locations is already cheaper than everything, including paid-off coal and paid-off natgas.

New solar at utility scale is currently competing mainly with natgas. In sunny areas, new solar is cheaper. In low-sun areas, it isn't yet, but it probably will be in within three years. And that's assuming natgas stays cheap, which it won't.

New *rooftop* solar is competing with the *retail* rates. In this case it's cheaper in areas with expensive utility rates and more expensive in areas with low utility rates. The utility rates are mainly a function of the utility's attitude -- whether the utility is big into hydro and wind (cheap), or doubling down on obsolete nuclear (very expensive) and siphoning profits off for CEOs.

Then there are batteries. At *utility scale*, they're competing to provide for sudden short-term power spikes against "peaker plants" which are very inefficient natural gas plants, and the batteries are cheaper. At home scale, they're competing with the cost of distribution, which largely depends on utiliity company attitude, as I said. Eventually batteries will be competing with transmission lines at utility scale and the transmission lines are probably cheaper.

One problem we're facing is that utilities keep throwing money into obsolete fossil fuel generation, even though that's a big waste of ratepayer money. A tax on that generation might wake up the utilities and get them to put their money in renewables which are the future.