PG&E changes 110% of usage rule to 100%

[skepticcyclist]

When applying for NEM, it is necessary to get approval for the output kW of the PV system. This is typically based on previous usage, and the old rule was to not exceed 110% of the previous. One can also ask for additional capacity based on expectation of higher usage. (E.g, for our house, we asked for 8.16kW which projected to 260% of historical usage, but I claimed that we would install a heat pump and so needed the extra capacity. This was approved.)

For houses without a history, one was able to use the square footage time 3.32. That has been reduced to 3 watts/sq. ft.

https://www.pge.com/snemapply/nemLanding/build?execution=e1s1

I'm not in PG&E territory (I have SCE), so this doesn't affect me. But I won't be surprised of they follow suit.

What happens during a drought year, like this year, where our winter production may be well over 100% of normal winter production due to 2x's as many sunny days. Normally I use much more than I produce in the winter, and the summer is where I make up the difference. This winter I produced more than I used

 

[holeydonut]

I'm not in PG&E territory (I have SCE), so this doesn't affect me. But I won't be surprised of they follow suit.

What happens during a drought year, like this year, where our winter production may be well over 100% of normal winter production due to 2x's as many sunny days. Normally I use much more than I produce in the winter, and the summer is where I make up the difference. This winter I produced more than I used

For the numerator of the calculation... production figures come from PVWatts (or a similar calculator). So they'll consider your average annual production for an array that has the pitch, azimuth, etc of your proposed design.

But that denominator of their stupid 110% (now 100%) ratio is your previous year actual usage which is recorded by either the actual PG&E meter or some energy consumption meter that PG&E trusts. I think this previous year consumption thing is straight up trash. PG&E wants to believe they know more about my energy usage than I do. Stupid ivory-tower-protected-by-BS-monopoly-laws-a-holes over there.

They get on my case repeatedly for using too much energy, then screw with me when I try to get solar and a EV. Because they view solar and EV owners as elitist pricks sticking it to the "disadvantaged" California population. I don't know why anyone who isn't working for PG&E or SCE actually attempts to defend their terrible practices. These utilities freaking suck.

Edit: I also hate how Gavin Newsom is clearly in bed with these utility jerk-os. Any time someone calls PG&E a "monopoly" he is quick to correct them saying PG&E is an "Investor owned utility or IOU". Screw you and your semantics Gavin. A monopoly is given "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." PG&E views solar installs as competition, and the only people allowed to "compete" with California energy have to abide by PG&E's rules, fees, etc. Because PG&E is guaranteed a level of profit after their crazy high cost structure to execute their broken business model. There is no "IOU"... this is a freaking monopoly.

 

[jjrandorin]

For the numerator of the calculation... production figures come from PVWatts (or a similar calculator). So they'll consider your average annual production for an array that has the pitch, azimuth, etc of your proposed design.

But that denominator of their stupid 110% (now 100%) ratio is your previous year actual usage which is recorded by either the actual PG&E meter or some energy consumption meter that PG&E trusts. I think this previous year consumption thing is straight up trash. PG&E wants to believe they know more about my energy usage than I do. Stupid ivory-tower-protected-by-BS-monopoly-laws-a-holes over there.

They get on my case repeatedly for using too much energy, then screw with me when I try to get solar and a EV. Because they view solar and EV owners as elitist pricks sticking it to the "disadvantaged" California population. I don't know why anyone who isn't working for PG&E or SCE actually attempts to defend their terrible practices. These utilities freaking suck.

My personal opinion is, for you specifically, its likely you either contacted "the wrong someone" or had a phone conversation that wasn't pleasant with "the wrong someone" and ended up on what is basically a list that says " we are going to allow the letter of the law for this person and nothing else" list.

I believe you mentioned somewhere earlier that you had conversations with people with some authority within PGE due to all the issues you had.

For anyone who believes that these type lists do not exist, I cant speak for PGE, but I CAN speak as someone who has done (or managed) customer service people my entire career, and I guarantee those lists exist. They usually are not some official thing but they do exist.

Where I work ( for example ) we have a person who has spilled liquid into their laptop on 3 different occasions. They never say what happened, just "My computer doesnt work". When the contractor employees responsible for basic support take the laptop in, the questionnaire has a question on it "did you spill anything in, or drop the laptop?" The answer this person gives is always "No", yet when they take the laptop in, there is residue of whatever they spilled in there and they still say "I dont know anything about that".

Anyway, because of this, this person is basically on "the list" and anything they ask for gets put through the ringer... even legitimate stuff or things we might not question from others, because the team basically cant stand them.

Now, before I get the book thrown at me, I am not saying you lied, or cheated or did anything like that. I am just speculating that you ended up on "the list" due to some interaction you had, possibly with lots of "notes" in your account file there.

TL ; DR, I believe you are on "a list:" where everything you do will be scrutinized to ensure it meets the letter of the law, where its possible others may not have the same scrutiny.

 

[holeydonut]

My personal opinion is, for you specifically, its likely you either contacted "the wrong someone" or had a phone conversation that wasn't pleasant with "the wrong someone" and ended up on what is basically a list that says " we are going to allow the letter of the law for this person and nothing else" list.

I believe you mentioned somewhere earlier that you had conversations with people with some authority within PGE due to all the issues you had.

For anyone who believes that these type lists do not exist, I cant speak for PGE, but I CAN speak as someone who has done (or managed) customer service people my entire career, and I guarantee those lists exist. They usually are not some official thing but they do exist.

Where I work ( for example ) we have a person who has spilled liquid into their laptop on 3 different occasions. They never say what happened, just "My computer doesnt work". When the contractor employees responsible for basic support take the laptop in, the questionnaire has a question on it "did you spill anything in, or drop the laptop?" The answer this person gives is always "No", yet when they take the laptop in, there is residue of whatever they spilled in there and they still say "I dont know anything about that".

Anyway, because of this, this person is basically on "the list" and anything they ask for gets put through the ringer... even legitimate stuff or things we might not question from others, because the team basically cant stand them.

Now, before I get the book thrown at me, I am not saying you lied, or cheated or did anything like that. I am just speculating that you ended up on "the list" due to some interaction you had, possibly with lots of "notes" in your account file there.

TL ; DR, I believe you are on "a list:" where everything you do will be scrutinized to ensure it meets the letter of the law, where its possible others may not have the same scrutiny.

I agree at some point I got put on a list; but the part I cannot fathom is when entry to that "list" occurred. But everything they've done to bully me and make me think I'm the problem is the type of gaslighting that I hate. Blaming me for their freaking problem is stupid. I'd be like if you walked over to someone's desk and dumped soda on their computer 3 times then blamed them for submitting 3 tickets for damaged equpiment.


In Mar 2019 I moved into this home. Up until then, I had no opinion whatsoever about PG&E since they didn't bug me while I was renting in SF.

In July 2019, I got my first "whoa what the hell" PG&E bill. I was like... how can we have used $300 of electricity in one month? We weren't doing anything out of the ordinary and we were barely running the AC. So I called PG&E and asked them to look into my situation. They said they were billing accurately and I should consider energy saving tips.

In August 2019, PG&E started sending me nastygrams in the mailer when my bill hit $425. They said I was in the worst 1% of homes in my area and I need to do better. I was on the E1 plan and was moved to the "!" tier which has energy that costs more than EV2-A peak rates. I was getting 1 call a week from PG&E offering to help me reduce my energy costs.

In August 2019 I also bought 2 Nest smart thermostats and signed up for "rush hour" where PG&E would shut off my ACs during peak time. This did not go well as my wife and newborn were not doing well in the heat.

In September 2019, I called PG&E and told them to stop calling me and sending me nasty grams in the mail. I told them I'd solve my energy issue next year in 2020. I also checked, and our home with 2 ACs peaked at about 1,400 kWh in a month. While this is "high" by Bay Area standards it is about average for a single family home that uses AC.

In March 2020, I started my solar project and ultimately selected Sunrun (I wish @Vines services East Bay). Sunrun submitted a 2x battery and 24 panel NEM proposal to PG&E and they were requested to drop the # of panels to 23. I responded to Sunrun saying I wanted as many panels as I could fit on my Southward exposing roofs because I'd eventually get an EV. Sunrun revised the NEM agreement to include expected future demand. PG&E refused.

In July 2020 PG&E thought I had 125A service to my home and told Sunrun I needed to trench new lines underground. They were wrong.

In October 2020 PG&E thought my gas riser was too close to my MSP.

In October 2020 PG&E thought my 2x Powerwall setup with partial home backup would explode my MSP and my gas riser so they threatened to kill my install

In November 2020 PG&E agreed my 3x Powerwall with whole home backup was ok

In January 2021 PG&E did that NEM2-MT BS with the extra insurance requirement to get PTO.

 

[wwhitney]

Your narrative sounds like a 2 sigma negative PG&E experience to me (1 out of 40 installs go so badly or worse) rather than a 3 sigma negative PG&E experience (1 in 700). Of course I'm completely guessing, someone like @Vines would actually know.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[msm859]

What happens to people who want to install hot tubs or pools or extra ACs in the future? Or, who want to buy EVs in the future (i.e., EVERYBODY!)?

It's not like you can easily add additional panels in DIY, plug and play mode!

Actually it is when you use micro inverters. Just wire and rail the system for further expansion. Then when you need it, add more panels?

 

[holeydonut]

Your narrative sounds like a 2 sigma negative PG&E experience to me (1 out of 40 installs go so badly or worse) rather than a 3 sigma negative PG&E experience (1 in 700). Of course I'm completely guessing, someone like @Vines would actually know.

Cheers, Wayne

I think it's actually 1 sigma or less. I just don't believe PG&E is as smooth sailing as you'd believe with TMC's gripes usually basically being post-install issues with Tesla.

I've had more chats with my neighbors now that we're not sheltering so much (vaccines yay!). Two people further up the street from me were considering batteries like me, and were denied by PG&E in 2020 for various factors. They actually got pissed when they saw I had power during a recent outage and they didn't... because PG&E wouldn't let them get batteries.

The difference is, those homeowners didn't really ask their solar installer what was up (local shops). And the installers didn't really bother pushing the envelope because they said the ROI on batteries was too low to justify. The average person just kind of goes "whatever" when presented with sub-optimal news. The irony is that if I were also a "whatever" customer, then none of us would have gotten batteries and none of us would care.

But my point is PG&E found a way to turn 3x prospective PV+ESS installs into 1x undersized PV+ESS install and 2x PV only installs. Those homeowners smartly did their PV after they had Teslas. Yay for them.

 

[dareed1]

Our interactions with PG&E have been minimal. When I ordered from Tesla, I didn't know about NEM applications, etc. I just knew that Tesla's recommendation of 4kW and 1 PW wasn't going to be adequate once we changed from gas to electric heat. Tesla agreed and took care of the 8kW/2PW application, the AHJ permits, etc. My first interaction with PG&E was after installation was finished and we weren't getting PTO as quickly as I had hoped. It turned out that Tesla hadn't submitted even the signed NEM agreement, which they apparently lost. Tesla sent me a new (identical) NEM agreement to sign on a Monday and we received PTO in three days.

Not sure if it is significant, but the stories written here about big difficulties with PG&E seem to me to be mostly associated with installers who appear to be less experienced or less interested than Tesla.

 

[holeydonut]

Our interactions with PG&E have been minimal. When I ordered from Tesla, I didn't know about NEM applications, etc. I just knew that Tesla's recommendation of 4kW and 1 PW wasn't going to be adequate once we changed from gas to electric heat. Tesla agreed and took care of the 8kW/2PW application, the AHJ permits, etc. My first interaction with PG&E was after installation was finished and we weren't getting PTO as quickly as I had hoped. It turned out that Tesla hadn't submitted even the signed NEM agreement, which they apparently lost. Tesla sent me a new (identical) NEM agreement to sign on a Monday and we received PTO in three days.

Not sure if it is significant, but the stories written here about big difficulties with PG&E seem to me to be mostly associated with installers who appear to be less experienced or less interested than Tesla.

Yeah, to jjrandorin's point, it's possible Sunrun is the one on the craplist, and I'm just caught in the crossfire because I stupidly picked them as my installer. I can't tell if my issues were because I opted out of their stupid "save energy" list though.

I know for sure I'm the only person on this forum who had a NEM-agreed, fully permitted, approved by the PG&E planning department install; that was completely blown up because somebody told me they hated Sunrun and he didn't like the system design.

But what did PG&E do after this? Instead of helping me get around this one issue, they doubled down and threatened to pull my PG&E approval all-together unless I did the change that the one angry PG&E guy demanded. It's that mindset that tells me PG&E is more rotten inside than people on TMC think of our local energy monopoly.

Anyway, I'm glad Tesla went to bat for you to get you the right system. Maybe it is tougher to go to bat for a customer's interests than at first blush. So the installers like Vines and Tesla know how to work thorough things to make them seem "normal" when they're actually big lifts.

 

[h2ofun]

Yeah, to jjrandorin's point, it's possible Sunrun is the one on the craplist, and I'm just caught in the crossfire because I stupidly picked them as my installer. I can't tell if my issues were because I opted out of their stupid "save energy" list though.

I know for sure I'm the only person on this forum who had a NEM-agreed, fully permitted, approved by the PG&E planning department install; that was completely blown up because somebody told me they hated Sunrun and he didn't like the system design.

But what did PG&E do after this? Instead of helping me get around this one issue, they doubled down and threatened to pull my PG&E approval all-together unless I did the change that the one angry PG&E guy demanded. It's that mindset that tells me PG&E is more rotten inside than people on TMC think of our local energy monopoly.

Anyway, I'm glad Tesla went to bat for you to get you the right system. Maybe it is tougher to go to bat for a customer's interests than at first blush. So the installers like Vines and Tesla know how to work thorough things to make them seem "normal" when they're actually big lifts.

I will give pge anything they want. I need their help if I put in for a lot more solar panels.

 

[juiced]

At what point will PG&E approve or deny the system size? I am in the process and waiting for install date. We oversized in anticipation for an EV, and also so we can run the AC more. Hoping to not have an issue but we are sized almost double last year's bills. We have also been in discussion about pool heat pump, and possibly swapping out some gas appliances for electric. They really should just limit how much energy they will pay you for.

Let me know if you're interested in a "used" pool heat pump. I put in a new pool 2 years ago, with a very nice heat pump. I have never used it as it really doesn't work in the bay area (doesn't get hot enough). I just use the solar water panels...

 

[dailo]

I am in the process of getting solar and PW installed and just thought about this topic as my system is a little oversized, but noticed that on the PGE Interconnect application Tesla put 0 kWh under estimated annual production. I assume PGE just signed off on this, so I guess maybe because there is storage they can put that but I hope it doesn't mean that I won't be able to send anything back to the grid!

 

[SMAlset]

Me too. Our local water system, CalAm a private company from Germany, pushed to conserve water and ended up raising the cost like crazy.
Then, they wanted and got back pay for not billing those rates earlier.

Now we are trying to buy them out.

Believe this was same kind of situation with East Bay MUD and its customers a few years ago—customers reduced usage by a good margin and then EBMUD said they didn’t make enough money so had to raise their water rates. Good luck on getting control of your water.

 

[SMAlset]

I think if you question a lot of their work, want to micro-manage the project, keep making changes, have attitude talking to customer service and workers no one will want to work with you. Kind of understandable if you are on the other side of the table. Time is money and if you take up too much of their time, have lots of complaints and questions, come off acting like you know more than they do doing their job, no amount of money is likely going to make you someone they want to work with as you are viewed as not able to ever be satisfied with their work. Attitude goes a long way to explaining things like bad listed, no matter if you are in the right or not.

 

[slcasner]

I am in the process of getting solar and PW installed and just thought about this topic as my system is a little oversized, but noticed that on the PGE Interconnect application Tesla put 0 kWh under estimated annual production. I assume PGE just signed off on this, so I guess maybe because there is storage they can put that but I hope it doesn't mean that I won't be able to send anything back to the grid!

The design for my pending Solar Roof is substantially more than 100% of current usage, in part because we already have a PV system that will be replaced. When I expressed concern to my project advisor regarding the numbers in the connection agreement that seemed to artificially show an OK bottom line, he said not to worry, that Tesla had some sort of agreement with PG&E. My concerns were based on earlier posts in this thread. We shall see.

 

[SMAlset]

The design for my pending Solar Roof is substantially more than 100% of current usage, in part because we already have a PV system that will be replaced. When I expressed concern to my project advisor regarding the numbers in the connection agreement that seemed to artificially show an OK bottom line, he said not to worry, that Tesla had some sort of agreement with PG&E. My concerns were based on earlier posts in this thread. We shall see.

Can’t speak directly to the agreement referenced but I know after the horrible wildfire that destroyed Paradise and then subsequent PSPS outages across many counties, I was told Tesla said they could alleviate some of the outage issues for the utility (fewer angry PG&E customers) by installing more solar and battery backups. PG&E was very receptive back then. PG&E even granted early people a $1000 wildfire credit on their system with ESS installs. PG&E at the time, and remember they were saying it might take 10 years to isolate neighborhoods so not everyone had to be thrown into an outage, was I think happy to approve this kind of work. Then as time went on and with public and government pressure, they were looking at equipment upgrades themselves and lawsuits and cost of the wildfires. Their corporate attitude likely has a lot to do with a change of “heart” due to mounting expenses and lost revenue.

Also community aggregates started popping up, our area included, where many cities banded together to provide electricity to residents, cutting off PG&E’s ability to be a provider. In our area you were automatically enrolled in the aggregate unless you opted out (auto opt in guaranteed to not make PG&E happy). Not sure if that automatic member inclusion was a result of a lawsuit against the utility but in the end they had no choice and lost a lot of city residents who stayed with the aggregate. PG&E did get to bill for some vintage charge for leaving, which for us amounts to around $10 a month. They still manage the distribution, service and billing. We also get an accounting from the aggregate and a slightly better deal for grid usage and earn credits worth more for what we send to the grid.

I can’t complain about our PG&E service unlike others however. Never had a problem with their workers or customer service when we’ve called into them. They proactively showed up on our doorstep to replace a SmartMeter that had a display go out which they noticed at their end (data was stored internally in the meter anyway). When we had a gas leak at our previous place they came out during a storm to check it out and fix. I’m thankful their linemen work in bad weather to get power back on to people affected. Their outages/PSPS maps online are very helpful.

During our install the plans indicated a NGOM was required but in the meantime Tesla had received a waiver due to testing of their equipment not requiring one. A manager at PG&E we were put in touch with during our install reviewed our request and ran through approval so the meter was removed before our install was complete. Really appreciated that and not having to have the extra box on the wall.

 

[juiced]

At what point will PG&E approve or deny the system size? I am in the process and waiting for install date. We oversized in anticipation for an EV, and also so we can run the AC more. Hoping to not have an issue but we are sized almost double last year's bills. We have also been in discussion about pool heat pump, and possibly swapping out some gas appliances for electric. They really should just limit how much energy they will pay you for.

I have a pool heat pump I installed NEW with a new pool 3 years ago.I just disconnected it last week as I never (literally) used it and need to build a "shed over my equipment area and it was in the way. Its a Pentair I'll be listing to sell. Let me know if you're interested and I'll forward details and pics. It's a good one. Cheers

 

[astrorob]

In September 2019, I called PG&E and told them to stop calling me and sending me nasty grams in the mail. I told them I'd solve my energy issue next year in 2020. I also checked, and our home with 2 ACs peaked at about 1,400 kWh in a month. While this is "high" by Bay Area standards it is about average for a single family home that uses AC.

this is absurd. i was regularly using almost that much when i had a leaf EV before i had solar. no one ever contacted me about anything. they just took my $500 per month happily. maybe they decide what is "too much" based on home square footage but charging an EV has nothing to do with the size of the home. or maybe you're in an area where their infrastructure sucks and they don't want to upgrade it... but it is bizarre that they would bug you about this much usage.

 

[holeydonut]

this is absurd. i was regularly using almost that much when i had a leaf EV before i had solar. no one ever contacted me about anything. they just took my $500 per month happily. maybe they decide what is "too much" based on home square footage but charging an EV has nothing to do with the size of the home. or maybe you're in an area where their infrastructure sucks and they don't want to upgrade it... but it is bizarre that they would bug you about this much usage.

PG&E never explained this to me directly, but my suspicion is I got the notices in 2019 because of my energy usage during peak time. We had just purchased the house in February 2019. The home had the original two air conditioner condensers from the 1990s; which were probably 8 SEER (or worse). They would run non-stop to try and keep the house at 75F inside.

So while I initially thought PG&E's notices were because I went into the "!" usage E1 tier... it may have been a combination of how much and when the kWh were used.

My neighbor got the same nastigrams that I did from PG&E. The difference between him and me is that he didn't get solar+ESS but I did. In late 2020, he continued to ignore the notices from PG&E and he used his air conditioners non-stop during peak time. He still has the old 8 SEER dump-units.

PG&E got so fed up they sent a guy to his house and installed black boxes so PG&E could remotely shut off his AC condensers during peak time. The homeowner was livid; he did not want to authorize this. As you can imagine, if the ACs stop working when it's hot; now he has an angry wife and kids to contend with. Nobody wants to deal with that noise.

He said PG&E just showed up and installed "SmartAC" boxes . He felt PG&E told him he had no choice (they threatened that he wouldn't have power if he didn't comply). But based on the thread below ... we think the issue is a a cleverly worded threat. PG&E used their logic of avoiding brown outs; but worded it in such a way that the homeowner incorrectly thought it was a direct threat to disconnect his power for non-compliance.

PG&E (Northern California) finding: SmartAC program could be mandated?

I actually found someone that PG&E hates more than me (like for real, is that even possible)?? One of my neighbors saw my Powerwalls and chatted me up today. It seems like last year during sheltering, his August 2020 electricity bill was over $750. He doesn't have an EV; and doesn't have a...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[sorka]

What's hilarious is that PG&E JUST sent me another get $50 if you allow us to install SmartAC boxes on your AC. It's been nearly two years since using a single kwh during peak time since my peak and the partial peak is 100% powered by powerwalls. All they ever get is 100% of my solar during peak time back to the grid.