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PG&E E-TOU-C vs E-TOU-D with NEM 2.0 and Powerwalls

astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
494
122
oakland, ca
seems like i need to reevaluate things. despite owning an EV, PGE's tool and my own software says that E-TOU-C is more beneficial cost-wise. however, i just had 27kwh of powerwalls installed and it seems like load-shifting to the lower off-peak cost of EV2 makes a huge difference. for my best summer day E-TOU-C would cost $1.70 and EV2 would cost -$2.10.

however, i have no idea how to handle the baseline credit when the consumption at peak is negative. also IIRC the baseline stuff might happen on a monthly basis rather than daily. so my E-TOU-C calculation above is wrong. also we should have medical baseline now and i'm not sure how that plays in either. that complicates things.

regardless i need to go change my software to model the load shifting to see how the different rates look with the powerwall in place year-round, even if it's not 100% correct.

i'm scheduled to get kicked off EV this month, and although my true-up bill from the other day still says i'm on EV, the bill includes new verbiage about baseline rates so they may have automatically moved me to E-TOU-C.
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,497
483
95762
seems like i need to reevaluate things. despite owning an EV, PGE's tool and my own software says that E-TOU-C is more beneficial cost-wise. however, i just had 27kwh of powerwalls installed and it seems like load-shifting to the lower off-peak cost of EV2 makes a huge difference. for my best summer day E-TOU-C would cost $1.70 and EV2 would cost -$2.10.

however, i have no idea how to handle the baseline credit when the consumption at peak is negative. also IIRC the baseline stuff might happen on a monthly basis rather than daily. so my E-TOU-C calculation above is wrong. also we should have medical baseline now and i'm not sure how that plays in either. that complicates things.

regardless i need to go change my software to model the load shifting to see how the different rates look with the powerwall in place year-round, even if it's not 100% correct.

i'm scheduled to get kicked off EV this month, and although my true-up bill from the other day still says i'm on EV, the bill includes new verbiage about baseline rates so they may have automatically moved me to E-TOU-C.

If you added the PWs to existing solar, you will get a true-up bill based on the date of the go live
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,497
483
95762
well that is going to be crazy then because this november billing period was already my solar true-up date. so i'll get another one in a month?

Not sure since your true-up was so close. In my case, my normal true-up was end of July. Got PTO first part of May. Got true up in May which excluded my high producing months and resulted in an unexpected $500 bill.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,701
6,547
Los Altos, CA
They will issue a true-up as of your Powerwall PTO date, regardless of how short the covered period is. If you are being kicked out of EV-A into EV2-A, that will happen at the end of a billing period.

You can consider the E-TOU-C Baseline credit to be like Tier 1 with the base rate minus the Baseline Credit for whatever your baseline quantity is, Medical Baseline included. Everything above your Baseline quantity will be at the higher base rate. If you move to EV2-A, there are not tiers or baseline, so you lose any consideration of Medical Baseline quantities. Regardless, it may be cheaper for you if you are a net consumer.

Some people in this thread mentioned that they are on SVCE. If you are not a significant net consumer, you may actually come out ahead with a more expensive rate plan because SVCE pays out ALL of the generation credits. With Powerwalls driving Peak usage to zero or negative with solar exports, a higher rate Off-Peak may earn you more credits.
 
I had my true-up on 10/20 which included a 841kWh surplus where the credited me @ ~$0.03/kWh ($21.68 credit).
I got PTO on 10/4 at which time they changed my rate from TOU-A to TOU-C and then sent me another true-up bill for the period from 10/5 to 10/19.
However, my rate plan didn't get changed to EV2-A (which is required for my SGIP incentive) so I will have another true-up bill when my rate plan gets changed again. Since it is winter my solar isn't producing much but I'm using my heat so I have an additional (substantial) true-up bill coming. One of the frustrations is that they credit me at market rate but will be charging me retail rates for these incremental true-ups that are out of my control.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,701
6,547
Los Altos, CA
I had my true-up on 10/20 which included a 841kWh surplus where the credited me @ ~$0.03/kWh ($21.68 credit).
I got PTO on 10/4 at which time they changed my rate from TOU-A to TOU-C and then sent me another true-up bill for the period from 10/5 to 10/19.
However, my rate plan didn't get changed to EV2-A (which is required for my SGIP incentive) so I will have another true-up bill when my rate plan gets changed again. Since it is winter my solar isn't producing much but I'm using my heat so I have an additional (substantial) true-up bill coming. One of the frustrations is that they credit me at market rate but will be charging me retail rates for these incremental true-ups that are out of my control.
If you just change rate plan, they won't force a true-up. You will just have some months with dollars calculated on one rate plan versus the others. Like this.
PG&E TOU Energy History.jpg
 
If you just change rate plan, they won't force a true-up. You will just have some months with dollars calculated on one rate plan versus the others. Like this.
View attachment 608324
That's good to know (if true). The customer people in the PG&E solar department are unaware of this. Several have told me that the rate plan change will drive another true-up.
 

astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
494
122
oakland, ca
SVCE is silicon valley clean energy? or is it some PGE program with the same acronym?

anyway, i hacked my scripts and for my 2018-2019 usage/generation i find the following:

EV2: $1256 w/o powerwall, $752 with powerwall
E-TOU-C: $965 w/o powerwall, $1042 with powerwall

this is with a battery reserve of 50% (13.5KWh in my case.)

so indeed i should be on EV2 with the powerwalls.

as a comparison, under EV, i paid about $275 during this period (no powerwall). according to the script if i were to stay on EV, i'd pay $0 (actually -$213).
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,701
6,547
Los Altos, CA
SVCE is silicon valley clean energy? or is it some PGE program with the same acronym?
Yes, we're talking about Silicon Valley Clean Energy

Keep in mind when you're calculating stuff on different rate plans that you have the opportunity to shift actual usage by human behavior and programmatic Powerwall behavior that could result in different energy charges than your historical usage would suggest. This is especially true when moving to a plan like EV2 that has Off-Peak continuing all the way to 3pm. Running your A/C to a lower temp from noon-3pm can have a meaningful impact on your energy charges and your ability to ride through the 3pm-9pm Part-Peak and Peak hours without drawing from the grid.
 
@miimura and @astrorob I'm still a bit confused about the NEM billing.

Scenario 1
  • Peak = 15 kWh @ $0.48
  • Partial Peak = -20kWh @ $0.37
  • Off Peak = 40kWh @ $0.17
  • Total from Grid = 150 kWh @ $0.02 (non-bypassable charges)
Does this result in charges of (15 * $0.48) + (-20 * $0.37) + (40 * $0.17) = $6.60? With non-bypassable charges of (150-(15+45)) * 0.02 = $1.90?

Scenario 2
  • Peak = 10 kWh @ $0.48
  • Partial Peak = -90kWh @ $0.37
  • Off Peak = -500kWh @ $0.17
  • Total from Grid = 170 kWh @ $0.02 (non-bypassable charges)
Does this result in charges of (10 * $0.48) + (-90 * $0.37) + (-500 * $0.17) = $-113.50? With non-bypassable charges of (170-10) * 0.02 = $3.20?

If you end up being a net generator for the year and the overage is refunded at the generation rate ($0.02-0.03 for PG&E or $0.06-0.08 for SVCE), how does that impact the NEM charges? For example if during the summer months you are net +30kWh on Peak and in winter months are net -45kWh on Peak for net -15kWh, how is that handled? Is it separate calculations for summer/winter and peak/partial-peak/off-peak (6 TOU periods) and if you are negative in one or more of those you get the charge is $0 and you get a generation credit instead?
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,497
483
95762
your non-bypassable charges will be billed on your monthly bill along with a connection fee.
The NEM charges will be accumulated towards you annual trueup. your calcs for the trueups are correct above. If your trueup is negative, you will not receive a check in that amount. If you over produce for the year, you will get the refunded amount of 2 or 3 cents per kWh
 
That's good to know (if true). The customer people in the PG&E solar department are unaware of this. Several have told me that the rate plan change will drive another true-up.
I contacted PG&E again about a forced true-up if my rate plan is changed. Again, I was told a rate plan change would force another true-up. I pushed back and asked the representative to research it. She found something about a forced rate change occurring if the billing system is changed. I asked for clarification on that. She put me on hold while she talked to her supervisor. She came back and said going from solar to solar plus storage causes a billing system change. However, changing the rate plan within the solar plus storage billing system does not force a true-up. She said even her supervisor wasn't aware of that.
Hopefully this holds true.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,701
6,547
Los Altos, CA
I contacted PG&E again about a forced true-up if my rate plan is changed. Again, I was told a rate plan change would force another true-up. I pushed back and asked the representative to research it. She found something about a forced rate change occurring if the billing system is changed. I asked for clarification on that. She put me on hold while she talked to her supervisor. She came back and said going from solar to solar plus storage causes a billing system change. However, changing the rate plan within the solar plus storage billing system does not force a true-up. She said even her supervisor wasn't aware of that.
Hopefully this holds true.
This is exactly my experience.
1. Getting solar starts a true-up cycle.
2. Adding Storage forces a true-up.
3. Electing early enrollment in a CCA forces a true-up. You can wait for automatic CCA enrollment on your true-up date.
4. After you are already on Solar + Storage, changing the Rate Schedule does NOT trigger a true-up.
 
I contacted PG&E again about a forced true-up if my rate plan is changed. Again, I was told a rate plan change would force another true-up. I pushed back and asked the representative to research it. She found something about a forced rate change occurring if the billing system is changed. I asked for clarification on that. She put me on hold while she talked to her supervisor. She came back and said going from solar to solar plus storage causes a billing system change. However, changing the rate plan within the solar plus storage billing system does not force a true-up. She said even her supervisor wasn't aware of that.
Hopefully this holds true.

I'm on NEM and changed from E-6 to EV-A about 18 months ago (my idiocracy). When EV-A was closing a year ago, I proactively moved to E-TOU-A to avoid EV2-A; last month I was switched to E-TOU-C as E-TOU-A closes. Throughout all of that, my true-up has continued to remain in November year after year.
 

astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
494
122
oakland, ca
Yes, we're talking about Silicon Valley Clean Energy

Keep in mind when you're calculating stuff on different rate plans that you have the opportunity to shift actual usage by human behavior and programmatic Powerwall behavior that could result in different energy charges than your historical usage would suggest. This is especially true when moving to a plan like EV2 that has Off-Peak continuing all the way to 3pm. Running your A/C to a lower temp from noon-3pm can have a meaningful impact on your energy charges and your ability to ride through the 3pm-9pm Part-Peak and Peak hours without drawing from the grid.

i don't see what other powerwall modes are relevant for TOU plans other than cost-saving time-based? the only thing i see myself changing automatically with the local API is the reserve percentage, since the amount of solar available changes a lot with the season. even so my scripts tell me that with a reserve percentage of 60% there were only 79 days out of the year where i reached the reserve threshold while still in peak hours. that's not so bad. i should probably hack in the percentage of peak draw that came from the grid just to see how much money i'm leaving on the table for a particular reserve percentage.

as for behavioral changes, true, but i already do my best to try to run appliances at shoulder or off-peak and of course never charge the cars at anything other than off-peak. so i don't think anything is going to change there. i never sweat the AC since we really only need AC for maybe 10-15 days in a whole year (berkeley - ocean breeze/fog pretty much every day)
 
your non-bypassable charges will be billed on your monthly bill along with a connection fee.
The NEM charges will be accumulated towards you annual trueup. your calcs for the trueups are correct above. If your trueup is negative, you will not receive a check in that amount. If you over produce for the year, you will get the refunded amount of 2 or 3 cents per kWh

With Silicon Valley Clean Energy (SVCE) you get the retail value for surplus generation which has averaged $0.0821/kWh for the last year according to my PG&E bills. Switching to GreenPrime will get you another $0.008/kWh or $0.091 total. I'm not on GreenPrime right now, but I am going to switch over.
Rooftop Solar - SVCE
 
p.s. my account is currently not available on pge.com, which might have something to do with tesla finalizing the storage PTO paperwork? i should call them.

Probably not, my account was also unavailable over the weekend and became available again today. I thought it was the switch from E-1 that I'm on now to E-TOU-C, but when I checked today it's still showing as E-1 and I received PTO approval on 11/1. I think my billing switch happens when my current period ends on 11/24 +/-2 days. My PG&E account has been showing negative consumption/credits since I was able to turn on my system.
 
I'm on NEM and changed from E-6 to EV-A about 18 months ago (my idiocracy). When EV-A was closing a year ago, I proactively moved to E-TOU-A to avoid EV2-A; last month I was switched to E-TOU-C as E-TOU-A closes. Throughout all of that, my true-up has continued to remain in November year after year.
This appears to be the case. The rub is the PG&E customer service representatives aren't aware of this (well, one is now).
 

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