PG&E E7 NEM smart meter

[ohmman]

My SmartMeter is a GE I-210+ model. My download data is only in hourly intervals, but I would prefer 15-minute. My home is located in Sunnyvale not far from Los Altos.

There are a number of devices that you can use to log energy usage by circuit. I find this granular approach is more useful than PG&E's statistics, anyway, and it includes my solar generation along with a way to cross validate their meter reading. The space changes quickly, so I can't recommend any in particular (but as a launching off point, you can view the TED, the Brultech Green Eye Monitor, and others). They mostly operate the same way, using CTs for each circuit inside of your breaker box. Installation is pretty easy.

 

[wws]

We have had E7 for 20+ years - thanks to the previous owner of our house. (He was into ceramics and had a kiln.) Installed solar a year ago, and just bought a Volt.

It seems that we are all going to be forced off of E7 soon. E6 is going to be a short timer too, but a couple of years out. So with that in mind, I've been wondering which will work out better for the short term - E6 or EVA?

Kinda sorry to see E7 go away. I can see why they want to shift the prime times later in the day. ("Duck Curve" and all.) But E7 has been closed for some years now, and there are only about 65k subscribers remaining. It would gradually disappear on its own.

 

[miimura]

We have had E7 for 20+ years - thanks to the previous owner of our house. (He was into ceramics and had a kiln.) Installed solar a year ago, and just bought a Volt.

It seems that we are all going to be forced off of E7 soon. E6 is going to be a short timer too, but a couple of years out. So with that in mind, I've been wondering which will work out better for the short term - E6 or EVA?

Kinda sorry to see E7 go away. I can see why they want to shift the prime times later in the day. ("Duck Curve" and all.) But E7 has been closed for some years now, and there are only about 65k subscribers remaining. It would gradually disappear on its own.

If you have a significant amount of usage between 11pm and 7am like scheduled EV charging, then you will probably be better off on EV-A than E-7. E-7 would have been good for solar and a Kiln because the solar collects more hours at peak rates and the kiln would not be used that many days per month. However, charging an EV at Off-Peak rates is so much cheaper on EV-A that it usually more than offsets the solar collection benefit. However, your net usage relative to Baseline makes a huge difference in the comparison.

 

[ohmman]

If you have a significant amount of usage between 11pm and 7am like scheduled EV charging, then you will probably be better off on EV-A than E-7. E-7 would have been good for solar and a Kiln because the solar collects more hours at peak rates and the kiln would not be used that many days per month. However, charging an EV at Off-Peak rates is so much cheaper on EV-A that it usually more than offsets the solar collection benefit. However, your net usage relative to Baseline makes a huge difference in the comparison.

With solar, EV-A has been the best for me. I've run the calculations and it's a pretty big winner among the available plans. I move my pool pump to night hours as well, with minimal daytime hours for the solar heater in the summer. There is an iOS app called PG&E toolkit which also does this calculation for you based on past usage.

 

[aesculus]

If you can afford it (and if you have a Tesla I know you can), then two meters is the best. Keep the car on the cheapest dedicated EV rate and the house on E7. That is what I am set to do as soon as the MX arrives. Permit is in hand. Just waiting for the specs on the X to stabilize before buying HPWC etc.:smile:

Now by the time my MX arrives PG&E will probably have sub metering so a second meter will be moot. I just don't want the MX to tip me into other rate tiers that would mess up my household bill. The solar is pretty much taking the bite out of that now, especially during peak periods.

 

[Merrill]

If you can afford it (and if you have a Tesla I know you can), then two meters is the best. Keep the car on the cheapest dedicated EV rate and the house on E7. That is what I am set to do as soon as the MX arrives. Permit is in hand. Just waiting for the specs on the X to stabilize before buying HPWC etc.:smile:

Now by the time my MX arrives PG&E will probably have sub metering so a second meter will be moot. I just don't want the MX to tip me into other rate tiers that would mess up my household bill. The solar is pretty much taking the bite out of that now, especially during peak periods.

I agree, this is what I did because the Tesla put me into tier 5 on my E7 tou NEM with solar. So taking the car off the house works for me and I charge off peak. Who knows what the future will bring with PG&E, I'm looking to expand my solar system and will see what the cost is do that. The less I have to pay the power company the better.

 

[slcasner]

If you can afford it (and if you have a Tesla I know you can), then two meters is the best. Keep the car on the cheapest dedicated EV rate and the house on E7.

The downside of two meters is then the solar can't offset both home and car usage. Submetering would fix that problem.

 

[Merrill]

The downside of two meters is then the solar can't offset both home and car usage. Submetering would fix that problem.

In my situations it does offset the car charging 5 months of the year when I earn a credit and if you extrapolate that out it is probably more than 5 months with the credits in the summer being applied to my total bill until I have used them up. So for driving 10,000 miles a year it costs me around $150. Also keep in mind that some of those miles were done with the superchargers.

 

[aesculus]

The downside of two meters is then the solar can't offset both home and car usage. Submetering would fix that problem.

But EVB is non tiered so you don't take a penalty if you use it like you do for the house with its tiers. Just charge between 12am and 6am and its always the same.

The magic is when you can keep your house out of the Tiers greater than 2. (ie 3, 4, 5)

 

[slcasner]

My point was that if you want to have a solar system large enough to generate enough net-metering credit to equal the total consumption in both the house and the car, then you have to have a single meter because a credit on one meter can't offset a charge on the other meter. I suppose the solar system could be split in two, and part hooked to each meter, but that would be more costly.

 

[miimura]

My point was that if you want to have a solar system large enough to generate enough net-metering credit to equal the total consumption in both the house and the car, then you have to have a single meter because a credit on one meter can't offset a charge on the other meter. I suppose the solar system could be split in two, and part hooked to each meter, but that would be more costly.

Net Meter Aggregation is a new thing that may address the issue you raise. However, I've not heard of it being allowed or used in this specific application. ie. E-6 or E-7 on the generating meter and EV-B on the second meter.

 

[aesculus]

My point was that if you want to have a solar system large enough to generate enough net-metering credit to equal the total consumption in both the house and the car, then you have to have a single meter because a credit on one meter can't offset a charge on the other meter. I suppose the solar system could be split in two, and part hooked to each meter, but that would be more costly.

I guess the question is can you make more money by selling energy back at peak than you consume off peak on the EV meter? And this would only be true if you were net less after the period than consumption. ie PG&E did not actually have to pay you. I suspect you could generate more credit value than the EV would consume. But it you end up over generating, the actual cash value (<4 cents) would be worse than the charges on EVB.

 

[ohmman]

I guess the question is can you make more money by selling energy back at peak than you consume off peak on the EV meter? And this would only be true if you were net less after the period than consumption. ie PG&E did not actually have to pay you. I suspect you could generate more credit value than the EV would consume. But it you end up over generating, the actual cash value (<4 cents) would be worse than the charges on EVB.

I suppose there is a more efficient way of doing things, but my approach keeps it pretty simple. I sized my PV system to match my consumption, and with EV-A, I sell back at ≈40c/kWh and consume at ≈10c/kWh during the summer. I wind up a net user of electricity over my true-up period (2GWh last year), but I run a hefty credit which I forfeit. If I were more concerned about the credit situation, I could easily size up my usage and stop being such an energy miser - but I'm more interested in not being a net consumer of grid power. In that way, I'm still a bit in the hole. I plan to size up my PV system next year so that I can meet my goal.

The funny thing is that even without juggling rates and usage patterns, my ROI is under 6 years. That's one "benefit" to PG&E's insane energy prices - they provide a pretty easy economic incentive towards alternative sources.

 

[Ampster]

@Ohmman, you are at what I call the sweet spot in NEM TOU rate. I also am a net consumer because I have shifted many of my loads to the super off peak times and also have a small credit. You are also benefitting the grid during the day when demand is the highest. There is no financial benefit to buying more panels. I admire your goal, however and you would be contributing to distributed generation, which also benefits the grid.

 

[kf93]

there's not a financial payback for overproducing more than you consume, but as noted the way the system works you don't need to make 100% of your production because of the price difference. Especially because even the high rate in the winter is much less than the peak rate in the summer when the max production happens. Also as our installer said during the planning phase, even if you are a little off, you are most likely buying at tier 1 prices, so you still save a lot overall. I think our payback will be less than 6 years also, Do they tell you what your charges would have been at the true up to calculate the actual savings? I'm only about 8 months into the first year.