PG&E High NEM Charges

[rp1a]

Relatively new at this. We have a solar roof that was turned on at the start of 2021. Production has been much lower than expected. After four months, we have offset about 50% of our usage. For the time period, this has resulted in a reduction of a portion of our monthly electric bills, where we pay for generation and delivery. The reduction in the bill is a bit less than 50%.

However, we are also accumulating substantial NEM true-up charges at the same time. These true-up charges add up to more than the savings on our monthly bills. Overall, we are paying more for electricity (monthly + true-up) with our partial solar offset than without it.

We are in northern California, with PG&E.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[sorka]

You should only be paying ~$10/mo in your electric portion of your bill. The rest should accumulate towards you annual True-up

I'm not paying that. It's being added to true up charges in my B&W, but it's then credited in aggregate at true-up to the positive balance. So if I have more than $120 at true-up then the $120 mininum billable is subtracted off that. At true up, I own NBCs + $120 no matter what. So if I have less than $120 billable, then I lose the difference.

 

[sorka]

I'm not paying that. It's being added to true up charges in my B&W, but it's then credited in aggregate at true-up to the positive balance. So if I have more than $120 at true-up then the $120 mininum billable is subtracted off that. At true up, I own NBCs + $120 no matter what. So if I have less than $120 billable, then I lose the difference.

Whoops. I take that back. I am being charged for it monthly but I'm not getting a bill because I have a statement credit that is slowly eating it up. It still gets credited back for anything actual charges over $120 at true-up.

For the OP, if you haven't, look at a sample true-up bill:

https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/myhome/saveenergymoney/solarenergy/billing-callouts-trueup.pdf

Part of the difference might be that you don't realize the $120 your paying $10 / month for right now will be deducted from your positive NEM charges at true-up time.

 

[holeydonut]

Hi,

I want to share with people. I asked Tesla is there any limit on the size of the system from PG&E. I specifically asking the 120% rule that your have pointed out. The energy advisor told me, the have a team of people working with PG&E and communicated regarding the system sizing. She told me, they have people putting in 200% system of their last year usage, and it was fine. She told me if it go over 200%, it might be a problem. I didn't ask further why and how they can do it.

But what I see is Tesla have no problem put in a bigger system than your last year usage. This is my guess, they play around with the production number (reduce the output number) and "projected future increase" (increase this) to stay below that 110%. The rule is 110% of your last 12 months of usage AND PROJECTED FUTURE INCREASE.

They justify with 1 or 2 EV charging, and each EV takes 3000kWh. Then they bump up by 5000kWh without any problem.
At the end, the rule still be able to met. But reality is, I have a 160-170% system.

That's the difference between Tesla and other installer. They have PEOPLE know how to make it work.

The best thing to do is to ask Tesla what is the biggest system that you can put in. They would be able to tell you. Of course, my system is small compare to most of the people. Therefore, even I get 160% that's still less than 6kW system. May be from PGE point of view, that's below the radar.

One more thing regarding estimated production number, that can be easily saying there's tree and shading problem. Then later the tree was cut. Honestly, for some reason right after I finished install, my neighbor decided to cut down their big tree. One day, I came back home, the tree was gone. I got 10% more in production. So far my production is way above my expectation. I guess that's a good thing.

View attachment 657854

Yeah, there's a NEC 120% rule on the busbar rating and this PG&E 110% rule on the solar sizing... I get those mixed up all the time. Unfortunately for me, PG&E crapped on me for both issues for my purchase with Sunrun.

1) I couldn't size my system in excess of 110% of my 2019 consumption because they rejected the portion of my initial NEM2 application where I asserted I was purchasing an EV and desired a solar array that was over 110% of my previous usage. Sunrun actually removed 1 panel from my original bid with max-sizing because it wasn't worth it to fight with PG&E on the 1 panel.

2) PG&E denied my partial home backup solution because they rejected Sunrun's proposal even with a new "solar ready" main service panel. PG&E cited the 120% percent rule for this rejection. I believe had Sunrun simply used a 70A OCPD over the top of my AC units instead of a 125A, then I would have been ok. But I just couldn't convince Sunrun to let me speak with their designers. Sunrun was about to cancel my order before I was finally able to convince my local Sunrun branch manager to push a whole home backup solution instead of partial home backup.

Bottom line, I hated every step of this stupid PV+ESS project, and 99% of the issues I encountered were because PG&E was taking oddball interpretations against me. It's good to see that Tesla knows how to over-size arrays with their customers. But I guess in my case it wouldn't really matter since I can't over-size due to space constraints.

Anyway, my system is very very very close to achieving my original goals and has remained on budget. The system just took 12 months to implement and 12 months of my time to sort through so many issues . I like the outcome, but this process blows.

 

[Ampster]

PG&E cited the 120% percent rule for this rejection.

That is fairly unusual for an IOU to care about anything behind the meter. Usually they leave that up to the building inspectors. My recollection of the approval process is the permit with the City or County is pulled first and then the app. My only experience is with NEM apps not SGIP. I don't remember your install involved SGIP?

 

[holeydonut]

That is fairly unusual for an IOU to care about anything behind the meter. Usually they leave that up to the building inspectors. My recollection of the approval process is the permit with the City or County is pulled first and then the app. My only experience is with NEM apps not SGIP. I don't remember your install involved SGIP?

The IOU took it personally to shut my install down because one of their employees HATEEESSSSS Sunrun (he told me how solar companies were shady when he was at my house. Apparently Sunrun screws more people than PG&E screws people).

My initial design with partial home backup did not have SGIP because it only had two batteries. So this first design didn't qualify for the large-scale SGIP.

Since PG&E crapped all over it, I took advantage of some info from @Vines about the large-scale incentive to add a third battery. With this incentive, I could do the whole home backup and the busbar on the MSP was well protected.

 

[albertm3]

The IOU took it personally to shut my install down because one of their employees HATEEESSSSS Sunrun (he told me how solar companies were shady when he was at my house. Apparently Sunrun screws more people than PG&E screws people).

My initial design with partial home backup did not have SGIP because it only had two batteries. So this first design didn't qualify for the large-scale SGIP.

Since PG&E crapped all over it, I took advantage of some info from @Vines about the large-scale incentive to add a third battery. With this incentive, I could do the whole home backup and the busbar on the MSP was well protected.

From talking to all my friend getting solar from Sunrun, PG&E is very straight on their system sizing.

For Tesla, they can get away with a lot of red tape. I really don't know why. Either Tesla has a VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP. Or SunRun did something wrong.

 

[holeydonut]

From talking to all my friend getting solar from Sunrun, PG&E is very straight on their system sizing.

For Tesla, they can get away with a lot of red tape. I really don't know why. Either Tesla has a VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP. Or SunRun did something wrong.

Yeah, my hypothesis is that internally PG&E views Sunrun as a bad-faith competitor who constantly pushes poorly priced solar leases and purchase power agreements (PPAs) on unsuspecting homeowners. This is further exasperated by Sunrun basically teaching their sales people to view PG&E as a "source of pain" and double-down on establishing a hatred for the utility as a motivator to purchase solar.

Here's a fun article on Bloomberg about how Sunrun had basically trained their sales team to read over a PoCo bill and target pain points. And then of course the next logical step after establishing a stressor is to explain how Sunrun makes the pain go away. Pretty standard sales practice IMO, but I can see why PG&E would take this personally.

What Happened When I Bought a House With Solar Panels

Third-party ownership and decades-long contracts can create real headaches.

www.bloomberg.com

The part that really confuses me is why PG&E really cares about any of this. I mean... I'm one freaking homeowner. Taking out a hatred of Sunrun on me seems as misplaced as me finding one low-level PG&E line worker and slashing his tires. Don't harm the individuals caught in the crossfire; harm the corporate overlords involved in this mess.

It's just a BS approach for PG&E to screw with me instead of just doing their normal thing. You know, bribing lawmakers with fat construction contracts in their districts while gaslighting the ratepayers that PG&E's ludicrously wasteful spending is necessary since they are guaranteed profits that offset such wasteful spending.

 

[power.saver]

The part that really confuses me is why PG&E really cares about any of this. I mean... I'm one freaking homeowner. Taking out a hatred of Sunrun on me seems as misplaced as me finding one low-level PG&E line worker and slashing his tires. Don't harm the individuals caught in the crossfire; harm the corporate overlords involved in this mess.

Would you recommend Sunrun to someone looking to get solar after all you went through?

 

[holeydonut]

Would you recommend Sunrun to someone looking to get solar after all you went through?

I’d have to break that up into two distinct categories.

If the homeowner is doing solar only and doesn’t give a rats behind to get batteries, then Sunrun is great. They don’t nickel and dime for main service panels, sub panels, and other things that Tesla added surcharges. Plus Sunrun would do the high quality mounting on my roof while Tesla went with the cheapest option. The only thing that Sunrun doesn’t do that Tesla does is paint the conduit runs.

But if you want a battery, I’m afraid Sunrun is out of their element for ESS. Their designers still view batteries as a small backup option for a small set of breakers. Plus they can’t figure out how to navigate PG&E’s BS. They don’t have the same mindset of Tesla or @Vines. Maybe they did a deep dive into my project and have the right mindset now... but I feel that is unlikely. I think Sunrun likes unsophisticated simple solar only installs.

 

[sorka]

I have a google sheets dashboard that models everything pulling from the Tesla API. I compare it monthly with the B&W bill to make sure it agrees with PG&E. It's within a few $ so far.

 

[sorka]

The dashboard tracks grid, powerwall, solar, and house energy flows for every 5 minutes. It tells me exactly what I would have paid without solar or powerwalls, how much I'm paying with both and how much I would be paying with solar without powerwalls since I want to know how much the powerwalls are saving me in addition to solar by using them to offset peak usage.

The last few months it was something like $50 / month which is hardly worth it. But on May 1st when peak power climbs from 35 cents to 50 cents (EV2-A) and with the amount of AC we use, the May savings should be around $150 with June, July, and August all being well over $300 / month.

The other thing is that the lifetime savings includes net metering credit back to PG&E that I haven't used so I'm recognizing savings that I haven't actually gotten since PG&E won't actually pay me for my positive net generation, but by time summer comes around and I'm using more than I generate because of AC usage, I'll use up that credit I accumulated but it'll be charged in the model as grid + NBC usages. i.e. I'm recognizing savings at generation time rather than usage time. As long as I have a net usage from the grid and not positive generation by the time true up comes, it'll be accurate. If I'm below the true-up target at true up, I'll lose that in exchange for pennies on the wholesale rate per kwh.

 

[holeydonut]

I have a google sheets dashboard that models everything pulling from the Tesla API. I compare it monthly with the B&W bill to make sure it agrees with PG&E. It's within a few $ so far.

View attachment 658469

Lol, now you need to break up "Savings" to be the pure PV vs Grid and the TOU shifting benefit. Then in 10 years you can come back to TMC and talk about how great Powerwalls were back in the COVID era.

 

[sorka]

Lol, now you need to break up "Savings" to be the pure PV vs Grid and the TOU shifting benefit. Then in 10 years you can come back to TMC and talk about how great Powerwalls were back in the COVID era.

Funny you should say that. Last year total kwh usage from the grid was about the same as the year before but there was a huge shift from NOT charging my car off peak to using tons of AC peak that we didn't used to use. We had $600 to $700 bills in the summer last year which was a lot more than the typical $400 bill for summer usage even though we were using the same amount of electricity.

 

[rp1a]

After I got PTO from PG&E at end of March this year, I called Peninsula Clean Energy (CCA in the SF Bay Area) and asked about NEM2 since I've been on ECO100 for years and not knowing who is going to do true-up. They told me that PG&E will bill me monthly on delivery charge (NBC and that other $10.00 minimum charge I think) and I have to pay that monthly to PG&E. Peninsula Clean Energy will start their true-up clock every April, and it will be a running tab but I will have to pay month to month if it is a debit, it will roll over to the next month if it is a credit. This will go on until end of the annual true-up cycle then I will get a check if credit balance if over $100.00 otherwise it will be a rolling credit into the next true-up cycle starting April. So if I have started PTO in January and with low solar production I would most likely have to pay up every month until most likely March or April then I would start getting credit. Unless you have PW I think EV2-A is not as good as TOU-C or D as you have those shoulder rates.

After several calls and a lot of patience, this was the answer I needed. Thank you.
We have two providers, one for generation and the other for delivery.
Each handles its monthly charges differently, resulting in one combined monthly bill and two separate NEMs.
There were also errors in the first two monthly bills, adding costs and confusion. They were refunded.