PG&E is finally dropping the NGOM requirement for my 3 Powerwalls setup

[flyguyjake]

I have received this reply from the SCE engineer reviewing my PTO application

Please submit the following to verify the tesla Powerwall CRD requirements and to waive the NGO meter requirement:

· UL1741 CRD certification for Tesla Powerwall

• UL CRD Section 208 Equipment Information and instructions
• Test Reports (of powerwalls)

· Proposed operating mode

As of now SCE still requires customer to install one of NGO meter, Non-export relay, or certified control system (for projects over 10 kW energy storage). If you want to avoid installing one of these, please downsize energy storage rated discharge from 15 kW to 10 kW or below.

Can someone please help me.

 

[Vines]

I have received this reply from the SCE engineer reviewing my PTO application

Please submit the following to verify the tesla Powerwall CRD requirements and to waive the NGO meter requirement:

· UL1741 CRD certification for Tesla Powerwall

• UL CRD Section 208 Equipment Information and instructions
• Test Reports (of powerwalls)

· Proposed operating mode

As of now SCE still requires customer to install one of NGO meter, Non-export relay, or certified control system (for projects over 10 kW energy storage). If you want to avoid installing one of these, please downsize energy storage rated discharge from 15 kW to 10 kW or below.

Can someone please help me.

Your best bet IMO is to wait a couple weeks for this to shake out. There's no great data or docuument available to this point that I am aware of. The certification to drop NGOM is close, but its not in anyones hands that I know of, and we install many systems every week.

 

[flyguyjake]

Your best bet IMO is to wait a couple weeks for this to shake out. There's no great data or docuument available to this point that I am aware of. The certification to drop NGOM is close, but its not in anyones hands that I know of, and we install many systems every week.

I've asked CA Solar & Storage Association for help and I even tweeted Elon! lol ... My PTO has already been delayed several months because of this issue.

 

[Vines]

I feel for you, we hate installing every one of them, but we do on almost every single job except CPAU territory.
If you want PTO, install the NGOM, or keep waiting.
Sorry, I wish I had a better answer for you, but the NGOM is pretty small and simple.

 

[jjrandorin]

I have received this reply from the SCE engineer reviewing my PTO application

Please submit the following to verify the tesla Powerwall CRD requirements and to waive the NGO meter requirement:

· UL1741 CRD certification for Tesla Powerwall

• UL CRD Section 208 Equipment Information and instructions
• Test Reports (of powerwalls)

· Proposed operating mode

As of now SCE still requires customer to install one of NGO meter, Non-export relay, or certified control system (for projects over 10 kW energy storage). If you want to avoid installing one of these, please downsize energy storage rated discharge from 15 kW to 10 kW or below.

Can someone please help me.

you likely know this, but the thread title is about PG&E dropping the requirement.... not SCE. While they tend to mirror each other on some things, they dont on everything. Its likely that SCE changes to this lack of NGOM requirement, but there is nothing anyone can do to "help you" with this other than cheer for you as you wait for SCE to implement this... likely at the speed of molasses.

 

[heytae]

Finally!! I just had my 3rd wall installed and the installation crew was getting ready to wire the NGOM and I said "Stop" and they postponed the NGOM install pending approval, now they will have it!! Thanks for that info!!

Glad the info helped.

you likely know this, but the thread title is about PG&E dropping the requirement.... not SCE. While they tend to mirror each other on some things, they dont on everything. Its likely that SCE changes to this lack of NGOM requirement, but there is nothing anyone can do to "help you" with this other than cheer for you as you wait for SCE to implement this... likely at the speed of molasses.

I totally agree.

I have received this reply from the SCE engineer reviewing my PTO application

Please submit the following to verify the tesla Powerwall CRD requirements and to waive the NGO meter requirement:

· UL1741 CRD certification for Tesla Powerwall

• UL CRD Section 208 Equipment Information and instructions
• Test Reports (of powerwalls)

· Proposed operating mode

As of now SCE still requires customer to install one of NGO meter, Non-export relay, or certified control system (for projects over 10 kW energy storage). If you want to avoid installing one of these, please downsize energy storage rated discharge from 15 kW to 10 kW or below.

Can someone please help me.

Consider emailing your SCE interconnection approval contact and see if they can at least see any internal movement/discussion about SCE doing the same thing as PG&E has done. If so, that might give you some timeline estimate for their formality to be put in place, therefore allowing you to decide whether to wait or go for the NGOM installation. My PG&E contact had a sense the decision was impending, since I quoted her the PUC's decision last year. That's decision is publicly available on the internet but PM me if you need me to dig it up.

I personally was willing to wait for PG&E to formalize the decision, since I knew it was coming and I wasn't at-risk of loving my SGIP reservation. As far as I know. =)

Good luck to anyone who's in a similar boat.

 

[SMAlset]

We're in PG&E SF Bay area and recently upgraded our 2PW contract to add a third PW to our upcoming solar/PW installation so knowing we don't have to worry about yet another piece of equipment being added to our wall landscape actually is a relief. Thanks for the info @heytae. Good news indeed. Hopefully southern Calif. utilities will follow suit soon.

 

[heytae]

Glad to hear this news is helping out others in a similar situation. @SMAlset

 

[flyguyjake]

Is anyone aware of an NGOM alternative? Is a GMA an alternative? Any device that can substitute for the NGOM?

 

[SMAlset]

I saw this on the California Solar and Storage Association website listing certified equipment that can be installed without dedicated metering or separate relays. Tesla PW2 and SolarEdge Inverters SE3800A-US and SE7600A-US are both on it. You have to be a CALSSA member to see the fact sheet. ESS = Energy Storage System; CRD = Certification Requirements Decision; SCE = Southern California Edison; CEC = California Energy Commission.

Certified Power Control Systems List — CA Solar & Storage Association

Interestingly the SCE website for Certified ESSs says they stopped tracking this as of 10/01/19 as the CEC will have a list on their website. https://www.sce.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/SCE Simplified Non Solar equipment 10-1-19 Final.pdf Noticed that the URL they provided had typos in it. Nice . Correcting for the typos it will bring you to here ( https://www.gosolarcalifornia.org/equipment ) which refers you to the SEL (Solar Equipment Lists by the CEC) or the NSHP (for new homes) webpages as of June 1, 2020. Solar Equipment Lists According to the site this list will be updated on the first business day after the 1st, so Monday. Feels like trying to go through a maze.

 

[SMAlset]

If you download the CEC's "Solar Equipment Lists" (as of 7/21/20 no updates since), you'll find Tesla's AC 13.5 kW PWs (two models listed) on their ESS list. I may not be reading this correctly but there was a change made as of 7/13/20 to it. The issuing entity was Interek (testing lab like UL), the 7/13 date shows as a listing date for "Monitor Key Data Scheduling Attestation" and "Under Common Smart Inverter Profile Conformance / CSIP3*", it shows Yes*. The CSIP3 annotation is:
(3) A Y* notes the inverter has not been certified according to CSIP, but instead NRTL reported inverter was connected to a gateway during compatibility testing.

Intertek, the issuing Entity (NRTL in this case) had this annotation under "Inverter CSIP Conformance6":
(6) Inverter CSIP conformance information refers to the entity responsible for the documentation provided to the manufacturer. If the inverter is certified to CSIP, then the information refers to the certifying entity and the certificate date. Otherwise, the information refers to the NRTL that issued the compatibility report and the date of the report.

I haven't yet checked out the Inverter list but am assuming that the 2 Solar Edge inverters mentioned by California Solar and Storage Association in the above post were the units Intertek used in their testing that qualified the two device manufacturers for certification.

 

[heytae]

@SMAlset I'll respond to your DM too. I don't know about all of those detailed equipment lists, but I can say that I got my official PTO (Permission To Operate) from PG&E and I'm now finally waiting for my SGIP rebate check. PG&E followed through with what they said, no longer requiring our setup to have the NGOM installed. So, there is hope for anyone else who's been told otherwise. Keep pushing them to check with their management. The person I was dealing with directly is their Interconnection Manager. I'll see if I can get permission to post her name here, but in the meantime, here's the good news that she had emailed me with, after 7 months of this ordeal.

Received on 6/12/20:
"Hi Tae,
I received notice today that Tesla was recently able to get CRD certification for up to 9 Powerwall 2 batteries with a gateway installed, so this project is now okay to interconnect without an NGOM. I have completed an updated IA that will need to be signed by you. Once we have that the project should be ready for final inspection."

Hope this helps others.

 

[jboy210]

@SMAlset I'll respond to your DM too. I don't know about all of those detailed equipment lists, but I can say that I got my official PTO (Permission To Operate) from PG&E and I'm now finally waiting for my SGIP rebate check. PG&E followed through with what they said, no longer requiring our setup to have the NGOM installed. So, there is hope for anyone else who's been told otherwise. Keep pushing them to check with their management. The person I was dealing with directly is their Interconnection Manager. I'll see if I can get permission to post her name here, but in the meantime, here's the good news that she had emailed me with, after 7 months of this ordeal.

Received on 6/12/20:
"Hi Tae,
I received notice today that Tesla was recently able to get CRD certification for up to 9 Powerwall 2 batteries with a gateway installed, so this project is now okay to interconnect without an NGOM. I have completed an updated IA that will need to be signed by you. Once we have that the project should be ready for final inspection."

Hope this helps others.

Great news. I have 2 PWs and may add a 3rd. I assume now they just need to have the new powerwall installed and update PTO.

 

[SMAlset]

We are still in our install process which is why I haven’t posted any photos or updates yet (complicated install due to a few factors including pre-existing equipment needing to be moved). After we added our 3rd PW to our order and received our plans, we noticed they included a NGOM and disconnect. Didn’t see this until shortly before our scheduled date. Long story which I won’t go into, but with @Heytae’s advice we did pursue this and guess we received “a waiver”. This all happened literally on the heels of our scheduled install date and into it, and the team on Day 1 said they’d have to install them or reschedule, but added the equipment could be easily removed if we got approval. We are going to have it removed (husband doesn’t want to maintain it over life of the system) despite we’ll now have to patch the hole created for the wiring.

What Heytae was told by the PG&E Interconnection manager helped us out and very glad he passed it on. Tesla’s components were tested with the newly released Gateway2 and the “system” received CRD certification, apparently freeing up the need for the extra equipment. Is this a blanket thing now or is an individual waiver needed each time at present, I have no idea. We didn’t ask PG&E anything other than clarification on the need for it and Tesla had to send them additional project info which was then reviewed and the decision made. Unfortunately due to the timing of our install, the Tesla teams who had to be involved were extremely busy but did come though getting the utility what they needed. We were understandably very appreciative of everyone’s assistance.

If you are adding extra PWs beyond the 2 that apparently have not required this extra equipment, and now with the GW2 in use, I would discuss this specific request for exclusion with Tesla as early on as possible.

 

[SMAlset]

A bit further info I can add. Located an email that I hadn’t reviewed which was sent to my husband. Tesla did have to file and pay for on our behalf thru their interconnection department to PG&E’s interconnection department an application for this modification. PG&E emailed us about receiving it and attached a .pdf of it. We then were subsequently copied on an email to our advisor a few days later stating this: “I looked at the project (EGI Notification# xxx, Meter# xxx) and 3 AC Powerwall 2 batteries with Gateway has CRD certification, so it doesn’t require an NGOM to be installed.”

Looking over the Application there was no mention about modifying the AC Disconnect that the NGOM meter box was connected to so that will be staying. The wiring that was run was passed through the back of the disconnect box so with it in place we won’t need our stucco repaired in this location. The application for this modification did apparently require a new line drawing sent to PG&E as well, so would have required more of TE’s time to submit. Hopefully this change regarding NGOM usage with Tesla’s current combination of equipment can be incorporated into PG&E’s online filing platform which I think determines whether this meter is required based in info the installer supplies. Would free up TE and PG&E staff and avoid applications like this as well as the cost and installation time of the meter. It’s a fairly new CRD approval on the GW2 so likely just taking time.

 

[jboy210]

A bit further info I can add. Located an email that I hadn’t reviewed which was sent to my husband. Tesla did have to file and pay for on our behalf thru their interconnection department to PG&E’s interconnection department an application for this modification. PG&E emailed us about receiving it and attached a .pdf of it. We then were subsequently copied on an email to our advisor a few days later stating this: “I looked at the project (EGI Notification# xxx, Meter# xxx) and 3 AC Powerwall 2 batteries with Gateway has CRD certification, so it doesn’t require an NGOM to be installed.”

Looking over the Application there was no mention about modifying the AC Disconnect that the NGOM meter box was connected to so that will be staying. The wiring that was run was passed through the back of the disconnect box so with it in place we won’t need our stucco repaired in this location. The application for this modification did apparently require a new line drawing sent to PG&E as well, so would have required more of TE’s time to submit. Hopefully this change regarding NGOM usage with Tesla’s current combination of equipment can be incorporated into PG&E’s online filing platform which I think determines whether this meter is required based in info the installer supplies. Would free up TE and PG&E staff and avoid applications like this as well as the cost and installation time of the meter. It’s a fairly new CRD approval on the GW2 so likely just taking time.

You mention the GW2. Any idea if this also applies to the GW1 which I have?

 

[SMAlset]

Nope. But the CEC does publish listings of CRD equipment that you should be able to look up. It’s a very large spreadsheet and updated at least once weekly (when I downloaded it didn’t find the headings were locked for scrolling through the data below—maybe this can be user defined when table downloaded?).

I mentioned above in this thread how I saw that the PWs, our SolarEdge model inverter and the GW2 were listed there. The footnote indicated it was tested “as a system” to achieve the CRD. Find your equipment and see if the rating lab (guess Intertek) had tested it with that version of the Gateway.

 

[MJ_CA_2019]

Just to be clear, PG&E was holding my SGIP "hostage" unless I let them install the NGOM. I questioned why that's necessary still, since I showed them proof that the PUC announced an exception for the Powerwalls 2 last year, they don't ever charge from the grid, etc. They kept saying it's still a requirement, and I kept insisting that they have outdated info. After months of back and forth, that's when they said, ok, they finally got the green light to allow the NON-installation of the NGOM. Thereby, allow the PTO (Permission To Operate), which will then allow me to get my SGIP rebate (for Step 2 large scale system by the way which is different than the long queue that most people have been waiting for).

Now I'm glad I held my position, and they're no longer blocking me from getting my SGIP (via holding back my PTO). Crossing fingers that the rest goes smoothly here.

Note to self: research to see if others have gotten their large-scale Step 2 SGIP rebates yet and see how much longer that'll take after PTO. Anyone heard?

I was pretty much this same situation: 3 PW2 installed and permitted in December 2019, SGIP and PTO delayed due to NGOM nonsense.
(I had PV installed in early summer 2019 and already had PTO for that system.) I received PTO for my PW on 7/30/2020.

Now i'm facing perhaps a different SGIP issue. My installer applied for Large-Scale Step 2 and we had gone through several rounds with PG&E and I understood PTO (and the NGOM issue) to be the only thing preventing reservation of my funds; then COVID hit. My installer furloughed their entire service department without telling me and my application sat unchanged for a few months. My application says "Suspended" on the SGIP status Website, but my understanding is that Step 2 is now full. I've been dealing with a very unresponsive and unhelpful service manager. He is complaining that he can't find a contractor knowledgeable with SGIP to move my project forward. (This after telling me that residential wasn't open for Step 6 yet and all projects were on hold.)

So I'm curious how your delay on PTO has impacted your SGIP application, if you are still on Step 2 and what your current status is at the moment. I tried calling the PG&E solar center and was told I can't talk to a live person from SGIP. I emailed them and got an auto-reply that they are reading emails from about a month ago... Not a happy camper since my incentive was estimated at about 10k.

 

[Vines]

SGIP can be reserved any time after the contract is signed. If your installer was waiting until PTO they had no reason to that I know of..

The sooner you reserve your funds, the sooner you lock in your rebate amount.

We finally got word that 100% of installs are no longer requiring the NGOM! Now in the process of changing CAD plans and removing those that had been pre-wired.

 

[bkp_duke]

SGIP can be reserved any time after the contract is signed. If your installer was waiting until PTO they had no reason to that I know of..

The sooner you reserve your funds, the sooner you lock in your rebate amount.

If he's in the database as he reported, it's already been reserved.

I believe his problem is that there is no one left at the company that did the install that can work through the process to complete the paperwork.