PG&E (Northern California) finding: SmartAC program could be mandated?

[holeydonut]

I actually found someone that PG&E hates more than me (like for real, is that even possible)??

One of my neighbors saw my Powerwalls and chatted me up today. It seems like last year during sheltering, his August 2020 electricity bill was over $750. He doesn't have an EV; and doesn't have a pool, just has a 4 bedroom house whose occupants were sheltering and they wanted it like 74F. Poor guy, he should know he needs to set his thermostat to 80F, eat cold-cuts, and air dry his clothes in lieu of watching TV.

People in Norcal will recall the rotating outages and brownouts that took place during last summer. California needs more homeowners to eat cold cuts for dinner instead of warm meals.

Anyway, he was wayyyy into the E1 "Tier !" in those months. PG&E actually put him on the naughty list and told him he was a serious offender of extreme energy waste. They actually sent someone to his house to install the following device onto both of his outdoor condensing units:

This is PG&E's "SmartAC" program where participants allow PG&E to reduce the frequency of run and duration of run of AC condensing units. This is kind of similar to the "Leap Rewards" where homeowners install smart-thermostats to allow the PoCo to pre-cool a house before peak so the home can ride out the heat without running the ACs. But this device actually sits between the thermostat and control wire entering the outdoor condensing unit.

Normally this is a voluntary program. But for my neighbor PG&E told him he had no choice or else they'd disconnect his service. I got a good chuckle out of this. I never would have thought PG&E could do this. Like demand someone install hardware or else they'd lose service. Edit: the image of the box shown above doesn't show it, but PG&E actually installed a tamper evident lock (like what they put on meters to detect tampering) on both of the units. He was told if they come by for an inspection and the locks were cut, he'd face a big penalty).

Of course now he really wants to install solar panels (I hope he can fit more than me) and some ESS. He's expecting his bill to go up another 10 to 15% compared to last year. And he's not confident in PG&E's assertion that the new TOU rates will have zero impact to homeowners. I just hope PG&E doesn't run this poor guy through the ringer when he tries to go solar+ESS.

More info about this SmartAC program. I had never heard of this before today.

SmartAC™

https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/shared/smartac/pg-wc-2e_switchres_quick_guide[f]-screen.pdf

 

[Electrph]

Are you 100% sure he was actually required to install these or face disconnection ? ... I could see a less than honest rep implying this but other than not paying your bill regardless of usage (assuming you are not in true grow house territory ) how can a utility shut off service ?
Did something you linked show this AC program is something other than voluntary in certain instances ? If so maybe I skimmed it too fast

 

[funkadelic]

we're (voluntarily) enrolled in the SmartAC program many years back and have one of those devices mounted on the A/C condenser. And yeah there is a tamper evident seal like they have on the power meters.

Just noticed they have an IFTTT applet to push out notifications when a SmartAC event is happening. Am curious to know how many of these actually occur during the hot months

 

[Ampster]

I am not generally in favor of anything involving mandating equipment being installed. I am however in favor of processes that can shift demand to make the grid more resilient.
I do also question whether PG&E could actually disconnect service on a permanent basis since that would put the homeowner in violation of the building codes. A temporary disconnection for a few hours is what we all face with blackouts or brownouts and I would be infavor of some device on the utility side of the meter for a user that refuses to reduce consumption during critical periods.

 

[jboy210]

He should turn up the temps on the A/C and also check the insulation on his house. When we did a remodel we replaced all the windows with new energy-efficient units and split the HVAC downstairs/upstairs, This reduced the bill by 35-40%, prior to installing solar and PWs. We have always set the temps to 79-80 in the summer, so no change in comfort for us.

 

[holeydonut]

He said he didn’t want anything to do with the program, but PG&E basically required the install of the SmartAC or he’d face service interruption.

I’m not sure how things got this bad though... I had to deal with the “!” tier as well but his energy use is nuts lol.

I know the underlying pragmatic issue he’s facing because I had to deal with the same problem in 2019. It’s simply impossible to tell a house full of people that they shouldn’t run the AC at 5pm when it’s 100F outside and really hot inside.

I’ve installed a radiant barrier in the attic... put in an attic fan... put in plantation shutters on lower windows ... shaded the skylights... tinted the south facing elevated windows... and made a lot of delicious sweet iced tea. “!” tier is inevitable.

It gets way too hot in the damn house and people are going to run the AC. I’m not in India or the Philippines, people have AC here and want to use the equipment. I get why PG&E would have issues managing peak demand when everyone runs AC, since some people can’t set their thermostat to 80F and have it stay there.

So then why does PG&E want to fight homeowners why get solar and ESS? PG&E is in strong support of that bill that would basically wipe out net metering.

 

[holeydonut]

He should turn up the temps on the A/C and also check the insulation on his house. When we did a remodel we replaced all the windows with new energy-efficient units and split the HVAC downstairs/upstairs, This reduced the bill by 35-40%, prior to installing solar and PWs. We have always set the temps to 79-80 in the summer, so no change in comfort for us.

PG&E has already made a bunch of recommendations to me and my neighbor.

We both know HVAC is the primary culprit for high energy use. But our homes weren’t designed for efficiency. It’s impossible to combine the two AC into one split zone system.

It’s also impossible to zone the upstairs and downstairs without major remodeling work. The vaulted ceilings on the second floor are straight up murder for energy efficiency as well. We didn’t know any of this when we bought the house, but it’s out of scope to just change houses to escape PG&E’s energy bills. Getting solar is the easiest fix since the high cooling costs are directly related to sun exposure.

 

[Merrill]

Again this is the continual on going problem with the utility monopoly that has no one to control it they just do what they want.

 

[wjgjr]

Are you 100% sure he was actually required to install these or face disconnection ? ... I could see a less than honest rep implying this but other than not paying your bill regardless of usage (assuming you are not in true grow house territory ) how can a utility shut off service ?
Did something you linked show this AC program is something other than voluntary in certain instances ? If so maybe I skimmed it too fast

That is my question. We have a similar program out here, but it is completely voluntary, and I would think it would be big news if a utility was mandating this kind of thing on penalty of disconnection. Hopefully it was just some issue with a particular rep.

And just to add something that at least gets this more related to Tesla Energy... my wife did take a call from our utility and indicated (without telling me) that we would participate in this program, right as we were working on getting solar. Since one of the goals of solar was to reduce our electric bills without having to compromise on comfort, I had the install cancelled, as - at least out here - adding solar does much more to help the grid than the A/C shutoff.

 

[Ampster]

So then why does PG&E want to fight homeowners why get solar and ESS?

Good question that goes to a fundemental issue. PG&E is so large and serves too many masters. They do not have a long term strategy other than to increase shareholder value. The CPUC shares some of that blame.

 

[wwhitney]

Not sure I believe that SmartAC can be mandatory. Nothing I could find on PG&E's website describes it as anything other than voluntary. This web page (under opting out) tells you how to cancel.

SmartAC™

Cheers, Wayne

 

[holeydonut]

This guy 100% does not want the boxes on his house. PG&E told him if he doesn’t volunteer for it, he’ll face service interruption when it gets hot again. Not sure what that means for the homeowner but he’s not happy about it.

I’m sure the program was intended to be voluntary... just like net metering was intended to help people get solar. But PG&E has their ways to get what they want.

 

[SMAlset]

He said he didn’t want anything to do with the program, but PG&E basically required the install of the SmartAC or he’d face service interruption…..

Based just on how you wrote that, my guess is he likely had a choice — the device or service interruption, but he felt he wasn’t really given a choice. Could be wrong but I can see him feeling forced into it.

Long gone are the days of cranking the A/C down to the lower 70s.

Curious, when were your houses built? California and the SF Bay area having had decades of moderate weather I don’t see builders as having had the need for much in the way of installing higher rated insulation or anything but even single paned glass windows. But then decades ago the Bay’s hills were also more forested and fog was more prevalent.

I was shocked when my husband’s Cupertino apartment only had “noisy” single paned windows. Don’t think we thought the cold/heat as big of an issue back then compared to the sound transmission. When we were looking to buy a new construction house in a more interior area in the Bay, we were looking for at least low-E double paned windows and went with the extra insulation option offered by the developer for the attic and between floors. We talked about but still haven’t done anything to have our garage doors insulated. With our solar and PW equipment inside one of our garages we really should now. That garage faces northwest and no windows so not quite as bad but late afternoon it gets pretty hot in there.

While we haven’t had a full year of use from our solar system, we think on hot days the panels are cooling our house by shading the SE and SW roofs which would be an added bonus.

 

[Ampster]

adding solar does much more to help the grid than the A/C shutoff.

I would agree for the most part. However solar is intermittant and it is precisely after the sun goes down that the grid needs help by having people shift loads. A/C shutoff is cheaper than batteries to solve the ramp up in demand. I can afford batteries and others are happy to pay penalty rates but there needs to be an affordable solution for some who want that choice.

 

[Ampster]

PG&E told him if he doesn’t volunteer for it, he’ll face service interruption when it gets hot again. Not sure what that means for the homeowner but he’s not happy about it.

It could mean blackouts or brownouts. I am not happy about that prospect either. Especially the selfish attitude by those that are recklessly using power as if it were a free commodity.

 

[holeydonut]

This thread is related to Tesla energy since he is also sour on PG&E and wants Tesla solar and Powerwalls to get away from the PoCo haha.

Ok so I think I understand what PG&E may have told him that got lost in translation. PG&E said he would have service interruption if he didn’t install these boxes. He and I interpret that statement to mean he’d face a disconnection penalty.

But maybe PG&E just means that people who don’t have these smartAC boxes are responsible for the brownouts and rolling outages. So him failing to get SmartAC causes brownouts and service interruption.

Regardless, I don’t believe any state but California attributes brownouts to rate payer behavior. I don’t think either interpretation makes much sense, and I just hope this guy can get solar and ESS.

 

[wwhitney]

This guy 100% does not want the boxes on his house. PG&E told him if he doesn’t volunteer for it, he’ll face service interruption when it gets hot again. Not sure what that means for the homeowner but he’s not happy about it.

I don't believe that he individually would be disconnected by PG&E if he didn't participate in SmartAC. More likely a misunderstood or deceptively worded hard sell along the lines of "if heavy users like you don't sign up for SmartAC, then service interruptions and rolling blackouts for high demand will be more frequent."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Ampster]

Regardless, I don’t believe any state but California attributes brownouts to rate payer behavior.

I agree. California doesn't want to blame it on the duck curve because that would sound like Texas blaming their winter storm on wind turbines.
To me the reality is the duck curve has been recognized for at least five years and we are just now beginning to shift from peaker plants to battery storage an more combined cycle plants.

 

[skepticcyclist]

I had one of those for a few years. Eventually got it removed. It actually caused me to waste more energy than save energy.

It only shuts off the compressor. The rest of the system still runs. Since most houses, including mine, have ducts that go through an extremely hot attic, the duct work then acts as a heat exchanger.

The problem is when the compressor is shut off and the system isn't producing cold air, the ducts end up getting very hot. The blower continues to run eventually blowing hot air into the house. The house will instantly jump up a few degrees. It then takes hours to cool the house back down after they turn the compressor back on. It ends up using more energy to re-cool the house than it would have used to have the system maintain that temperature the hour or less it was turned off.

If I happen to be home I can quickly shut off the blower. It was when I wasn't home. I wouldn't know they shut it down until after I would get an alert that the temperature jumped up 5 degrees.

 

[holeydonut]

Based just on how you wrote that, my guess is he likely had a choice — the device or service interruption, but he felt he wasn’t really given a choice. Could be wrong but I can see him feeling forced into it.

Long gone are the days of cranking the A/C down to the lower 70s.

My wife sets the upstairs thermostat to 73F when we put our toddler to sleep... which is at the heart of peak time rate craziness. Works like magic... kid goes to zzz super fast. Solar FTW.

I empathize with any homeowner that is caught between the PoCo and between a family that wants to run the AC. It’s not a fun place to be. Edit, sorry I didn’t mean to imply you don’t empathize. I meant to imply the poco doesn’t empathize.

I don't believe that he individually would be disconnected by PG&E if he didn't participate in SmartAC. More likely a misunderstood or deceptively worded hard sell along the lines of "if heavy users like you don't sign up for SmartAC, then service interruptions and rolling blackouts for high demand will be more frequent."

Cheers, Wayne

I wish PG&E were as polite as you... but having been on the receiving end of the “you are an energy waster” messaging in 2019, they don’t say things the way you framed it. Anyway I’ll tell my neighbor he should be able to opt out of this, I just don’t know if he’s willing to take the chance that this was just a confusing communication. If he loses power he’ll have more problems to deal with than 2 black boxes by his AC’s.