Phantom Braking Discussion

[Cheburashka]

Phantom braking can be pretty bad. There's a spot on my drive where it slams the brakes on the highway and drops 10mph right away. Even worse is when it's in a spot where it goes from state highway to divided freeway and everyone is hitting the gas while AP is slamming the brakes. These days I just keep my foot on the pedal in all the places where I expect phantom braking. My wife, who drives more than I do, has stopped using AP altogether because of this.

 

[CKZ21Y]

We just drove our June 21 MY 540 miles, almost all interstate or 4 lane hiway. No FSD onboard, auto pilot not enabled because we had a rack attached to the tow hitch, so engaged tow mode. EVERY 20 or so minutes we had phantom braking issues. Some minor dropping a 5-8 mph with an empty road in daylight, and some were so bad everyone in the car yelped. It was so bad, I wouldn’t let my 18 YO drive at all. I have a call in to my Tesla rep but it was baaaaaaad. Took me from LOVING my MY, to feeling like I got a lemon.

 

[qdeathstar]

Autopilot not enabled? Phantom breaking issues? What?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

We just drove our June 21 MY 540 miles, almost all interstate or 4 lane hiway. No FSD onboard, auto pilot not enabled because we had a rack attached to the tow hitch, so engaged tow mode. EVERY 20 or so minutes we had phantom braking issues. Some minor dropping a 5-8 mph with an empty road in daylight, and some were so bad everyone in the car yelped. It was so bad, I wouldn’t let my 18 YO drive at all. I have a call in to my Tesla rep but it was baaaaaaad. Took me from LOVING my MY, to feeling like I got a lemon.

I think people need to specify whether they have radar or don't have radar.

The reason is the Tesla Vision code without Radar is not at parity in terms of functionality or performance as that the code for cars with Radar. So I would expect way more weirdness out of the vehicles without Radar until Tesla gets to the point of including Tesla Vision on the cars with Radar.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Autopilot not enabled? Phantom breaking issues? What?

I'm assuming they mean TACC only.

 

[dmurphy]

I think people need to specify whether they have radar or don't have radar.

The reason is the Tesla Vision code without Radar is not at parity in terms of functionality or performance as that the code for cars with Radar. So I would expect way more weirdness out of the vehicles without Radar until Tesla gets to the point of including Tesla Vision on the cars with Radar.

Nah. Happens on both my 3 & X, which are radar equipped. See video above.

 

[CKZ21Y]

I think people need to specify whether they have radar or don't have radar.

The reason is the Tesla Vision code without Radar is not at parity in terms of functionality or performance as that the code for cars with Radar. So I would expect way more weirdness out of the vehicles without Radar until Tesla gets to the point of including Tesla Vision on the cars with Radar.

We do not have radar.

 

[CKZ21Y]

I'm assuming they mean TACC only.

Yes, sorry, we were using adaptive cruise control, but had tow mode on, which disabled autopilot.

 

[DrDabbles]

feeling like I got a lemon

You didn't get a lemon. This has been happening to Teslas since they stopped using AP1 hardware, unfortunately. They have attempted to make it better by adding an ignore list for at least radar enabled vehicles, but that doesn't resolve the problem fully. And it causes other crash related problems like not stopping for traffic under an ignored overpass.

I wouldn't have imagined that radarless vehicles would get an ignore list, and obviously whatever is causing these braking events isn't only coming from the radar unit. My honest feedback is not to enable TACC with a trailer because it will phantom brake on you. I'm banned from using TACC or AP with my partner in the car because she gets motion sick from its behavior, on top of being petrified from the unexpected hard braking.

 

[qdeathstar]

And it causes other crash related problems like not stopping for traffic under an ignored overpass.

You keep making baseless claims...

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Nah. Happens on both my 3 & X, which are radar equipped. See video above.

I have a Model 3 with Radar and I do get occasional phantom braking for various causes, but nothing like what's being reported with the radarless cars.

The radarless cars are so bad with Phantom braking that they remind me of 2017/2018 AP2.

I really wish Tesla would add a speed overlay to the dashcam to better document the degree of phantom braking.

Most of the phantom braking I experience is maps related, and that would be so easy for Tesla to fix if they bothered to have a good reporting tool where the reporter could track the issue.

 

[maus92]

Earlier in this discussion, a poster insisted that the car can read speed limit signs along the roadway. I just returned from my first long-ish road trip to Morgantown WV on a route that passed through Cumberland, MD on I-68. The car did not detect six speed limit signs that were clearly in view of the camera system, nor did icons of those relating to the position of those sign register on the display. This indicates to me that speed limit signs are mapped rather than read by the camera system. The highway speed is reduced westbound on the viaduct through Cumberland from 70 mph, to 55 mph to 40mph. The 40mph signs were the ones that went undetected / unmapped. Interestingly, on the return trip eastbound, the stepped down speed limit from 70mph displayed the truck speed limit of 50mph - not the car speed limit of 55mph, and once again, the 40mph speed limit signs on the viaduct were not detected or mapped.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Earlier in this discussion, a poster insisted that the car can read speed limit signs along the roadway. I just returned from my first long-ish road trip to Morgantown WV on a route that passed through Cumberland, MD on I-68. The car did not detect six speed limit signs that were clearly in view of the camera system, nor did icons of those relating to the position of those sign register on the display. This indicates to me that speed limit signs are mapped rather than read by the camera system. The highway speed is reduced westbound on the viaduct through Cumberland from 70 mph, to 55 mph to 40mph. The 40mph signs were the ones that went undetected / unmapped. Interestingly, on the return trip eastbound, the stepped down speed limit from 70mph displayed the truck speed limit of 50mph - not the car speed limit of 55mph, and once again, the 40mph speed limit signs on the viaduct were not detected or mapped.

Tesla's cameras can detect speed limit signs since late last year. Not sure however if it applies to all HW versions.
Tesla releases new software update to visually detect speed limit signs, and more

Note that it only detects the regular white/black signs. It does not detect modifier signs like the yellow signs for slowing down on curves. Also I remember reading it's a hybrid of maps and camera. It basically has a position marked in the map, and then the camera detects the actual sign (I believe the stop signs are like this too).

 

[maus92]

Tesla's cameras can detect speed limit signs since late last year. Not sure however if it applies to all HW versions.
Tesla releases new software update to visually detect speed limit signs, and more

Note that it only detects the regular white/black signs. It does not detect modifier signs like the yellow signs for slowing down on curves. Also I remember reading it's a hybrid of maps and camera. It basically has a position marked in the map, and then the camera detects the actual sign (I believe the stop signs are like this too).

The car is 2 months old, HW3.. These were regulation white speed limit signs just like ones that are ubiquitous on interstate and other highways. The car clearly did not read multiple signs in the same area 2 days apart, going in different directions. Not sure why the car would go stupid just in that area - unless it is missing mapped data. Perfectly clear weather, unobstructed views, regulation signage - and the biggest clue was no icons (representations of the signs) showed in the display when passing the signs, which essentially proves that the car did not detect or interpret a speed limit sign, and that a speed limit signs are not mapped to the where the signs actually were.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The car is 2 months old, HW3.. These were regulation white speed limit signs just like ones that are ubiquitous on interstate and other highways. The car clearly did not read multiple signs in the same area 2 days apart, going in different directions. Not sure why the car would go stupid just in that area - unless it is missing mapped data. Perfectly clear weather, unobstructed views, regulation signage - and the biggest clue was no icons (representations of the signs) showed in the display when passing the signs, which essentially proves that the car did not detect or interpret a speed limit sign, and that a speed limit signs are not mapped to the where the signs actually were.

It's likely operating a hybrid system to avoid false positives. People tried tricking the system with self-made signs and there's no doubt it's reading at least some them using the camera (although it seems it's doing some parsing to eliminate signs it doesn't think makes sense):

Here's one for the UK:
Tesla Model 3 Traffic Sign Recognition Tricked With Fake Signs

 

[maus92]

It's likely operating a hybrid system to avoid false positives. People tried tricking the system with self-made signs and there's no doubt it's reading at least some them using the camera (although it seems it's doing some parsing to eliminate signs it doesn't think makes sense):

Here's one for the UK:
Tesla Model 3 Traffic Sign Recognition Tricked With Fake Signs

That is a possible explanation; unsafe, but possible assuming that the car thinks 40 mph is an invalid speed limit on an interstate highway. Also on the return trip just prior to the 40 mph area through Cumberland, the speed limit steps down from 70 mph to 55 for cars; and 50 for trucks. As I stated previously, the car decided that 50 was the appropriate speed limit. The speed limit signs were stacked vertically on the same post, but they are represented by icons as separate sign posts (one right after another.)

 

[stopcrazypp]

That is a possible explanation; unsafe, but possible assuming that the car thinks 40 mph is an invalid speed limit on an interstate highway. Also on the return trip just prior to the 40 mph area through Cumberland, the speed limit steps down from 70 mph to 55 for cars; and 50 for trucks. As I stated previously, the car decided that 50 was the appropriate speed limit. The speed limit signs were stacked vertically on the same post, but they are represented by icons as separate sign posts (one right after another.)

Yeah, Tesla's system at the moment doesn't seem to detect any modifiers to signs, so that may be why it just treated the truck limit as the speed limit. If the sign was not stacked, it'll probably ignore the truck sign completely (just like how it seems to ignore school zones).

 

[ytfsic]

For those only have basic autopilot, is phantom breaking non existence now because tesla system is operating under full vision?

OH god no. Dawn/dusk/nighttime and shadows are all the terrors that scare the car.

 

[maus92]

More fun to report on Tesla sign "reading." Yesterday, the car interpreted / read a US50 route sign as a 50mph speed limit sign The route sign was partially obscured by leafy tree branches. The speed limit in the area is 65mph. And today, the car interpreted a Do Not Enter sign as a Stop sign. The sign was at an oblique angle to the car while sitting at a traffic signal at the end of an exit ramp.

 

[TAfirehawk]

Well I know my M3LR sees the signs because if I am passing a vehicle on the left and it can't see the sign, then it won't change the speed limit. And this is on a 4 lane road that I drive every single day that it normally changes speed limits just fine.

No system or even human is perfect in every situation.....