Phantom braking so bad I want to return my car

[jama999]

All,

I'll pile on here as well. My Model Y Performance was delivered in Late August and I have had this problem since day 1. I live West of metro Austin, TX on VERY WELL travelled roads, and there are lots of other Teslas around. There are even a few with FSB, up to version 10.5. Furthermore, my address is exactly 33 miles from the new Gigafactory, which means lots of other Tesla people - some employees - no doubt drive every day the same roads that I do.

MOST of the roads around here that I use TACC or AP on are either 4 lane roads with NO divider (2 lanes either direction and just a double yellow up the middle) - or a few have a continuous turn lane down the middle. There are a few with a median, but mostly not. If I turn TACC on and get in the left lane at any time and if there is ANYONE coming the other way, it will either phantom brake hard, or EB hard. It will do this consistently and within a couple minutes of switching on the cruise. I have learned that in this scenario its just best to turn it off and leave it off.

If I stay in the right lane with either TACC or AP, it will still phantom brake, but way less frequently and usually not a head-snapper - less severe.

In the case that there are curves, even a slight curve in either direction, the car will Phantom Brake HARD from either lane, seeing oncoming traffic or not, turn lane scenario in the middle or not, regardless of which lane I am in.

Keep in mind these roads are pretty much highways with traffic lights, they are not interstates but our classic big open Texas interconnect roads. Plenty of room in the lanes, well marked, generally no road debris. Safe, easy roads for most cars. My wife's Range Rover has a pretty advanced ADAS system and never once has it braked as a false alarm. I also have a late model Ford F150 Platinum with much similar tech, no problem there either. We literally drive up and down these roads every day with all 3 cars and the Tesla is the only false alarm generator.

I have reported these issues to Tesla several times now, and all I get is "Phantom Braking is normal for your car." No, sorry. PB, at least as it is in my car at the moment, is a safety hazard and a menace, and defeats the TACC and AP which is 40% of why I bought the damned thing in the first place. I have even considered filing a formal complaint at the Federal level about this, but I really do not want to be "that guy," so I have not and probably wont.
If anyone has an idea how to get through to Tesla that this needs more attention, Ill be happy to spearhead an effort.

Cheers
J

 

[gnarlyswans]

We received our Model Y on November 8th and just did a long trip. The cruise control and phantom breaking was VERY noticeable on the highway and we experienced exactly what the OP summarized on country roads at night in Arizona. It was downright scary and being from Colorado, it created serious concerns about what happens in snow when it slams on the brakes. I contacted Tesla but I had to do it on Roadside assistance as the app sucks for reporting anything other than that. I gave them an exact time slice they could review. My wife experienced the 65 to 30 on a highway issue today and called to report that. They say our cameras are calibrated correctly. I filed a report with NHTSA as well because Tesla doesn't seem to think this is a real issue.

All I can say is if you have experienced this on these 2 lane roads at night, it is down right dangerous. And just saying 'don't use the feature' on a $60k vehicle is ridiculous. Tesla should turn off these features on 2 lane roads like I heard cadillac did (or something). It seems impossible to think they actually tested this visual only system on a 2 lane road and signed off on it being released.

Hoping they fix this soon...

 

[TheLex]

WTH? Tesla is supposed to be such an advanced car. And yet my Subaru Ascent has not once suffered from phantom braking in the 25k miles that I've driven it all over the wester United States and Canada on all sorts of roads. Not one single event. Adaptive Cruise on the Subie works flawlessly and makes driving on freeways much much less fatiguing. I'm going to be pissed off as hell if my new MYLR hits the brakes with my entire family on board for no reason!

 

[boulder.dude]

I use TACC & AutoPilot extensively on my no radar MY (VIN 199xxx) and it performs well almost all of the time. Phantom braking a few times per week, usually on the same stretch of road. One way to mitigate it is to keep your foot on the accelerator gently to keep a few mph above the set speed. I’m happy with it, but it makes me think FSD is years away!

 

[drtimhill]

All I can say is if you have experienced this on these 2 lane roads at night, it is down right dangerous. And just saying 'don't use the feature' on a $60k vehicle is ridiculous. Tesla should turn off these features on 2 lane roads like I heard cadillac did (or something). It seems impossible to think they actually tested this visual only system on a 2 lane road and signed off on it being released.

Did you read the manual where it discusses which types of roads are suitable for which of the various AP options? A lot of people tend to over-estimate the ability of some of the car systems and use them inappropriately.

 

[drtimhill]

Keep in mind these roads are pretty much highways with traffic lights, they are not interstates but our classic big open Texas interconnect roads. Plenty of room in the lanes, well marked, generally no road debris. Safe, easy roads for most cars. My wife's Range Rover has a pretty advanced ADAS system and never once has it braked as a false alarm. I also have a late model Ford F150 Platinum with much similar tech, no problem there either. We literally drive up and down these roads every day with all 3 cars and the Tesla is the only false alarm generator.

While I'm not defending phantom braking, how sure are you those other cars you mention would have braked in a genuine emergency? Of course, we all want a car that brakes in a genuine emergency, but not otherwise, but there is no such thing. Would you prefer no phantom braking but a system that failed to brake in an emergency? How would you balance such a system?

 

[CyberGus]

 

[Fourdoor]

This was my experience in Central California over the weekend...Cruise was unusable because of the sudden braking if there was a vehicle approaching in the other lane.



Can you explain what "using speed limit mode" is? I'd like to try it next trip, thanks.

Speed limit mode is designed so you can let the teenage child in your life drive the car with less worry to the parent, it locks the car into chill mode and limits the speed to what ever you select and is locked via a pin code you select. On the phone app it is the third option on the security page. When you set a speed limit, you can then place your foot on the accelerator and it will go up to that speed and stay there. No automatic braking, no following the car in front of you and automatically adjusting speed... if for example you have it set to 60 mph, and you mash the throttle to the floor the car will accelerate to 60 mph and stay there! Imagine that, the car does what you tell it too do! The disadvantages are that you have to rest your foot on the accelerator pedal (anywhere from half way pressed, to all the way pressed should maintain your speed) and you can not adjust the maximum allowed speed unless the car is in park. You will still get the "oh my god we are going to die!!!" beeps from the car, but your speed will not be affected. Also, as you approach your set speed you will get a phone alert that the car has come within 3 mph of your max speed (tattle tale function for the teenage driver). Over all, it is a bit of a pain in the ass to not be able to change the max speed unless the car is in park, and I don't enjoy being locked into chill mode... but it is a huge improvement over TACC.

I mostly use this for my daily commute on two lane highways (steady 60 mph most of the drive), and on weekends I use the normal TACC system when going anywhere on a limited access freeway. If I were driving for hours on end on a road trip I may use speed limit mode even on a road trip, mostly because my wife would be with me and raising hell every time TACC freaks out.

Keith

PS: Auto steer function is not affected, and works great.

 

[Fourdoor]

I think Fourdoor might be referring to Speed Assist which seems to provide some speed limit functionality but is ultimately controlled by the TACC and its phantom braking issues. I have not found a simplified cruise control setting and, if you review Speed Assist in the manual, you'll see it's only a way of controlling speed once you're in TACC.

Nope. See my above reply for the explanation of what I am using

Keith

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

All,

I'll pile on here as well. My Model Y Performance was delivered in Late August and I have had this problem since day 1. I live West of metro Austin, TX on VERY WELL travelled roads, and there are lots of other Teslas around. There are even a few with FSB, up to version 10.5. Furthermore, my address is exactly 33 miles from the new Gigafactory, which means lots of other Tesla people - some employees - no doubt drive every day the same roads that I do.

MOST of the roads around here that I use TACC or AP on are either 4 lane roads with NO divider (2 lanes either direction and just a double yellow up the middle) - or a few have a continuous turn lane down the middle. There are a few with a median, but mostly not. If I turn TACC on and get in the left lane at any time and if there is ANYONE coming the other way, it will either phantom brake hard, or EB hard. It will do this consistently and within a couple minutes of switching on the cruise. I have learned that in this scenario its just best to turn it off and leave it off.

If I stay in the right lane with either TACC or AP, it will still phantom brake, but way less frequently and usually not a head-snapper - less severe.

In the case that there are curves, even a slight curve in either direction, the car will Phantom Brake HARD from either lane, seeing oncoming traffic or not, turn lane scenario in the middle or not, regardless of which lane I am in.

Keep in mind these roads are pretty much highways with traffic lights, they are not interstates but our classic big open Texas interconnect roads. Plenty of room in the lanes, well marked, generally no road debris. Safe, easy roads for most cars. My wife's Range Rover has a pretty advanced ADAS system and never once has it braked as a false alarm. I also have a late model Ford F150 Platinum with much similar tech, no problem there either. We literally drive up and down these roads every day with all 3 cars and the Tesla is the only false alarm generator.

I have reported these issues to Tesla several times now, and all I get is "Phantom Braking is normal for your car." No, sorry. PB, at least as it is in my car at the moment, is a safety hazard and a menace, and defeats the TACC and AP which is 40% of why I bought the damned thing in the first place. I have even considered filing a formal complaint at the Federal level about this, but I really do not want to be "that guy," so I have not and probably wont.
If anyone has an idea how to get through to Tesla that this needs more attention, Ill be happy to spearhead an effort.

Cheers
J

It's OK to file complaints. Report exactly what you have experienced accurately, without emotion.

The NHTSA will review and investigate if they deem it necessary. They are aware that there's a balance between the benefits of safety systems and the false positives from which they suffer. What they can do is make the manufacturers at least ensure that the systems are actually beneficial, including fixing any
underlying hardware problems.

And, flogging the dead horse, the variability of phantom braking is one of the reasons why they need dumb cruise control fallback.

 

[jama999]

Not to further stir the pot here, but how about this:

Looks like this is not isolated, this is from a professional car reviewer and journalist. Maybe Tesla will pay attention to him?

 

[jama999]

While I'm not defending phantom braking, how sure are you those other cars you mention would have braked in a genuine emergency? Of course, we all want a car that brakes in a genuine emergency, but not otherwise, but there is no such thing. Would you prefer no phantom braking but a system that failed to brake in an emergency? How would you balance such a system?

Good question. The F150's system is definitely crude comparatively, but its never false braked even once. It definitely saved me a couple times when, say, going through a narrow toll booth and steering correction was required. Now, the one in our Range Rover - which is a brand new 2021 model - is amazing. It does all kinds of stuff and is certainly superior to the Ford system. That being said, the Tesla system is obviously good too, just oversensitive and needs some software revisions.

J

 

[ftmaybe]

Did you read the manual where it discusses which types of roads are suitable for which of the various AP options? A lot of people tend to over-estimate the ability of some of the car systems and use them inappropriately.

That does not matter IMO. Because there is no base level cruise control option. I have used cruise control everyday of my driving life for at least the last 25 years - on ANY road. Having zero usable cruise control because according to the manual TACC should only be used on certain roads is ridiculous. My 1995 Toyota had cruise control, are we really to accept no cruise control at all 25 years later?? From the company allegedly on the leading edge of car technology? Everything about this situation stinks of Tesla hubris: roll out vision only without adequate testing showing you can pull it off and give customers no option but to suffer with an extremely poor *base level function* of any car while you “figure it out.”

Really a lot of the upset surrounding this could easily be defused by allowing a dumb cruise control. Allow generic cruise, and a lot of people could at least get by with that while tesla works this out. That or allow people to pay for radar or have it installed optionally by the service center.

 

[Fourdoor]

While I'm not defending phantom braking, how sure are you those other cars you mention would have braked in a genuine emergency? Of course, we all want a car that brakes in a genuine emergency, but not otherwise, but there is no such thing. Would you prefer no phantom braking but a system that failed to brake in an emergency? How would you balance such a system?

By giving the driver a choice.

Let me use dumb cruise control (that works every time as designed) or TACC (only works correctly on half of the roads it is designed for, and is not for use on curvy roads or city streets) at my own discretion. This is a $60,000+ car and it should have functional cruise control.

I don't think Tesla will ever do this unless forced to, because then they would have to admit that vision only is a flop. If they were forced to implement "dumb" cruise control I would bet they would make it so you have to have TACC active to use Auto Steer as an "F you" for being forced to provide dumb cruise as an option.

Keith

PS: Even after they declare FSD Beta to be functional and release it for use to all FSD customers, it will still have a BETA designation in the control screens. How else do you avoid liability in a system that doesn't work as advertised? FSD that actually works will be a pipe dream until Elon gives up on vision only... or declares that LIDAR is "Laser vision" and implements it with HW 4.0 or HW 5.0

 

[jama999]

That does not matter IMO. Because there is no base level cruise control option. I have used cruise control everyday of my driving life for at least the last 25 years - on ANY road. Having zero usable cruise control because according to the manual TACC should only be used on certain roads is ridiculous. My 1995 Toyota had cruise control, are we really to accept no cruise control at all 25 years later?? From the company allegedly on the leading edge of car technology? Everything about this situation stinks of Tesla hubris: roll out vision only without adequate testing showing you can pull it off and give customers no option but to suffer with an extremely poor *base level function* of any car while you “figure it out.”

Really a lot of the upset surrounding this could easily be defused by allowing a dumb cruise control. Allow generic cruise, and a lot of people could at least get by with that while tesla works this out. That or allow people to pay for radar or have it installed optionally by the service center.

Totally agree. In all of my other cars since about 2014 there has been the option to turn off TACC. This is a flaming example of Tesla hubris as you say. It reminds me of the decision to put the Yoke in the cars - assume that everyone is dumb, the Yoke is the "future" and don't give choice. Not giving a choice will cost sales and good will long term. Yes, Tesla is great and their tech is best blah blah blah, but no - there are still some things that I - as the buyer of a car costing $65000 - $135000 should have the right to select or not select.

Wake up call to Tesla is in order IMNSHO

 

[WhiteWi]

Driver errors and not knowing how to use vehicle systems doesn’t make it Tesla problem. Slow downs do happen for many reasons (mostly wrong speed limit data) they are not as dangerous as people claim or we would have lawsuit sitting at Tesla doorway.
Disclaimer: I use EAP almost exclusively for interstate trips. Minimal local roads use and usually taking over the system when passing construction works that effect lane markings. Radar Tesla.

 

[Tha_Ape]

OP, your level of phantom braking is astonishing me. I live about 20 miles outside of Baton Rouge, LA. I drive with FSD almost constantly and have had 1 real case of PB since I was updated (about 10 days ago??) to 2021.12.25.7. You should consider contacting a service center. I also recommend keeping your foot lightly resting on the accelerator so you can quickly over rule the braking. Good luck!!

it's funny that even 1 event in 10 days is considered acceptable though.

 

[Tha_Ape]

Driver errors and not knowing how to use vehicle systems doesn’t make it Tesla problem. Slow downs do happen for many reasons (mostly wrong speed limit data) they are not as dangerous as people claim or we would have lawsuit sitting at Tesla doorway.
Disclaimer: I use EAP almost exclusively for interstate trips. Minimal local roads use and usually taking over the system when passing construction works that effect lane markings. Radar Tesla.

have you updated to 2021.40.6?

 

[jama999]

Driver errors and not knowing how to use vehicle systems doesn’t make it Tesla problem. Slow downs do happen for many reasons (mostly wrong speed limit data) they are not as dangerous as people claim or we would have lawsuit sitting at Tesla doorway.
Disclaimer: I use EAP almost exclusively for interstate trips. Minimal local roads use and usually taking over the system when passing construction works that effect lane markings. Radar Tesla.

Personally, Ive been driving longer than most people have been alive. Ive owned 20+ cars, and certainly know how the Tesla system works. As you might see from my comments above, my issues happen in the wide open on almost always 4 lane roads or highways/interstate style roads. I generally do not engage any type of driver aid on any 2 lane road. I have also observed that this is never a speed limit issue. Again, see my comments earlier in the thread. For me and others, this is not an isolated or small problem. I started looking into this after a particularly bad moment recently, where I found the video review above and in fact Ben Sullins - one of the youtubers I follow - calls out how bad his personal car is in one of his recent videos.

I feel like the only reason Tesla has not been sued yet is that there has not been an egregious issue (accident, death, etc) as a direct result of this and that *I believe* this happened as a result of Tesla ditching radar to go to Vision exclusively, so the time/sample data on this might be too small for Tesla to accurately correct the problem. At the VERY LEAST people need to report it to service, NHTSA, whatever, to make them aware of how widespread the problem is.

 

[WhiteWi]

All I can say I don’t experience many slowdowns when I travel on long road trips. If they do happen I know exactly what caused it in most cases. Maybe vision cars suffer more I can’t speak about that. Hope Tesla corrects it with more data from vision only cars since I have order for MY.