Phantom braking so bad I want to return my car

[ftmaybe]

I call it slow downs because it is not full on brake. Could it be better? Sure! Is it as dangerous as some try to picture it? No! If it is for you then you are not paying attention to the road when driving. Read the disclaimer before you activate AP. You are still responsible and need to pay attention to the road and be ready to take over and not to look what you got on the back seat or take a nap.

The claims of full on braking and/or being dangerous are not hyperbole. There are YouTube videos posted recently showing abrupt deceleration of 25 or more miles per hour. That’s absolutely dangerous when other cars around you do not expect this at all because there is actually no event to react to.

Further - there is a big difference between paying attention to the road / being ready to take over and hovering your foot over the accelerator just because at any random time the car might slam on the brakes. Really, once you are on a roulette wheel of random braking there is zero benefit to any level of driver assistance. Driver assistance should reduce driving stress. IMO spending your time being anxious about when the next random braking event will happen greatly increases driver stress.

 

[jama999]

Who are you trying to convince? I have been reading about phantom braking ever since I joined OG Tesla forum when I got our 3 back in 2019. It is always vocal minority. I know what triggers it and so it is not phantom for me. I call it slow downs because it is not full on brake. Could it be better? Sure! Is it as dangerous as some try to picture it? No! If it is for you then you are not paying attention to the road when driving. Read the disclaimer before you activate AP. You are still responsible and need to pay attention to the road and be ready to take over and not to look what you got on the back seat or take a nap.

I cannot say I agree with this. Based on the information I am seeing here, on various internet outlets, and from lots of reviews, this is a clearly identified defect of the *Vision based ADAS system* and needs to be corrected. From what I can tell, this is not an isolated problem in Vision-equipped product.

Sometimes when this system brakes *for me* it is SEVERE - not moderate. It brakes and throws you forward in the seat without any warning, no audible chime, just slams on the brakes to various degrees on a completely clear road with no one around and nothing in front or in back to legitimize this behavior. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks you can 'back seat or take a nap' with these systems, but they do not do what they say they do, at least for the moment.

This is a real problem and not something that can be glossed over. I think a lot of it depends on the use case/environment where the car regularly travels, but regardless it is a problem. Tesla is obviously laser focused on FSD right now, which is great, but it does not excuse the fact that a SIMPLE STANDARD FEATURE of the car (cruise control or AP) do not work as advertised. We need the choice to switch it off, period.

 

[jama999]

The claims of full on braking and/or being dangerous are not hyperbole. There are YouTube videos posted recently showing abrupt deceleration of 25 or more miles per hour. That’s absolutely dangerous when other cars around you do not expect this at all because there is actually no event to react to.

Further - there is a big difference between paying attention to the road / being ready to take over and hovering your foot over the accelerator just because at any random time the car might slam on the brakes. Really, once you are on a roulette wheel of random braking there is zero benefit to any level of driver assistance. Driver assistance should reduce driving stress. IMO spending your time being anxious about when the next random braking event will happen greatly increases driver stress.

This is exactly the point. Mine is so bad I cant use it. I go out on a regular 4 lane road without heavy traffic and feel like I have to cover the brake pedal all the time when using either of these driver assist systems. It is not relaxing. It makes me nervous and tires me out trying to use it. Ive even tried turning the driver aid settings all the way down, but it still does it.

 

[WhiteWi]

I cannot say I agree with this. Based on the information I am seeing here, on various internet outlets, and from lots of reviews, this is a clearly identified defect of the *Vision based ADAS system* and needs to be corrected. From what I can tell, this is not an isolated problem in Vision-equipped product.

Sometimes when this system brakes *for me* it is SEVERE - not moderate. It brakes and throws you forward in the seat without any warning, no audible chime, just slams on the brakes to various degrees on a completely clear road with no one around and nothing in front or in back to legitimize this behavior. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks you can 'back seat or take a nap' with these systems, but they do not do what they say they do, at least for the moment.

This is a real problem and not something that can be glossed over. I think a lot of it depends on the use case/environment where the car regularly travels, but regardless it is a problem. Tesla is obviously laser focused on FSD right now, which is great, but it does not excuse the fact that a SIMPLE STANDARD FEATURE of the car (cruise control or AP) do not work as advertised. We need the choice to switch it off, period.

Hit voice command button and say report bug car braked hard for no reason or something in that manner. They will be able to investigate and maybe come up with fix faster based on reports.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Hit voice command button and say report bug car braked hard for no reason or something in that manner. They will be able to investigate and maybe come up with fix faster based on reports.

Unless you have FSD Beta, AFAIK bug reports stay in the car and are pretty much useless for providing feedback on its own. You would also have to contact service and have them pull the specific incident, but the response you would get is likely to be the same as others, which is that it's expected. Maybe it will get fixed when they fix things in FSD Beta and merge together (I don't believe even as of 10.5 it's merged yet).

Note above is purely talking about Vision specific regressions that supposedly occur frequently. "Phantom braking" has existed for a long time even with radar equipped cars and some of the less frequently occurring triggers may never be fixed.

 

[Fourdoor]

The claims of full on braking and/or being dangerous are not hyperbole. There are YouTube videos posted recently showing abrupt deceleration of 25 or more miles per hour. That’s absolutely dangerous when other cars around you do not expect this at all because there is actually no event to react to.

Further - there is a big difference between paying attention to the road / being ready to take over and hovering your foot over the accelerator just because at any random time the car might slam on the brakes. Really, once you are on a roulette wheel of random braking there is zero benefit to any level of driver assistance. Driver assistance should reduce driving stress. IMO spending your time being anxious about when the next random braking event will happen greatly increases driver stress.

Also, getting into the habit of pressing the accelerator every time the car brakes for no reason has the potential to result in a driver pressing the accelerator when the car detects a real danger that the driver is not aware of.

We have one person posting here implying that everyone knows TACC doesn't work worth a crap and you bought it anyway so it is your fault, while another is claiming that the problem is over exaggerated by people who don't understand the system and want to take a nap in the back seat. With the normal deafening silence from Tesla on Auto Pilot issues, how is a potential customer to sort this out?

I repeat my advice, don't buy a new Model 3 or Model Y that doesn't have radar until Tesla fixes this crap. If you want a Tesla, get a new S, a new X, or a (spring of 2021 or before) used 3 or a used Y.

Keith

 

[ftmaybe]

I repeat my advice, don't buy a new Model 3 or Model Y that doesn't have radar until Tesla fixes this crap. If you want a Tesla, get a new S, a new X, or a (spring of 2021 or before) used 3 or a used Y.

Keith

/nod. I just put the 3 LR I have on order on hold.

My car works right now. I am going to subscribe to FSD and get into the FSD beta so my car will be “vision only”. Then I will document how crap or uncrap it is. Then I will copy it onto VHS and duct tape it to Elons car. That should take care of this..

 

[Tman317]

I have a vision only 2021 MY LR. I've taken 3 short trips driving on expressways - 60 to 100 miles using CC with no other assist and experienced FB on two of the trips. I had read here that it can happen but people made it sound like it was infrequent so I didn't worry about it. It was pretty abrupt the first time and startled me. Not much traffic around so perhaps a shadow from the overpass I was near. Glad no-one was following close. The most recent is today; it happened twice. One was fairly mild the second harder like I was trying to brake. I feel Tesla doesn't have a vision system capable making the TACC work properly much less handle AP nor FSD. Heck they can't even get the auto wipers or auto brights to work effectively as in other cars and auto wipers have been around 30 years. I also get occasional warnings the side camera has a problem, which is probably bright sun hitting it. Not a robust system. I don't use CC when there is much traffic on the road so I can deal with it and my wife won't use any CC, but I'm Anger that I paid $50K for a car with features that that are well developed in the industry yet don't work well.

 

[Fourdoor]

/nod. I just put the 3 LR I have on order on hold.

My car works right now. I am going to subscribe to FSD and get into the FSD beta so my car will be “vision only”. Then I will document how crap or uncrap it is. Then I will copy it onto VHS and duct tape it to Elons car. That should take care of this..

Sure you don't want to use Betamax? After all... it is FSD Beta!

Keith

 

[Fourdoor]

I have a vision only 2021 MY LR. I've taken 3 short trips driving on expressways - 60 to 100 miles using CC with no other assist and experienced FB on two of the trips. I had read here that it can happen but people made it sound like it was infrequent so I didn't worry about it. It was pretty abrupt the first time and startled me. Not much traffic around so perhaps a shadow from the overpass I was near. Glad no-one was following close. The most recent is today; it happened twice. One was fairly mild the second harder like I was trying to brake. I feel Tesla doesn't have a vision system capable making the TACC work properly much less handle AP nor FSD. Heck they can't even get the auto wipers or auto brights to work effectively as in other cars and auto wipers have been around 30 years. I also get occasional warnings the side camera has a problem, which is probably bright sun hitting it. Not a robust system. I don't use CC when there is much traffic on the road so I can deal with it and my wife won't use any CC, but I'm Anger that I paid $50K for a car with features that that are well developed in the industry yet don't work well.

Shoot, the phantom braking on the expressway is considered minimal compared to driving on a two lane highway. Before I stopped trying to use TACC on two lane highways I would get around 5 events during a daylight commute, and over a dozen on a night commute... and this is in 26 miles with only 20 miles of that being 2 lane highway. I am just glad I figured out how to work around TACC and still use Auto steering.

One of the things that sucks is that the auto steering works fantastic... but you can't engage just the auto steering without using the horrible TACC as well. If you don't mind controlling speed yourself, but want the car to steer for you just engage AP and dial the TACC down to 20 mph and use your foot to control the speed of the car... no more phantom braking but you have to maintain speed on your own... or use my "speed limit mode" method as described earlier in the thread.

Keith

PS: With either of the work arounds above you still get the "we are all going to die!!!" beeps from the system... but at least it doesn't slam on the brakes.

 

[ftmaybe]

PS: With either of the work arounds above you still get the "we are all going to die!!!" beeps from the system... but at least it doesn't slam on the brakes.

Ah yes. The “we are all going to die!!!” beeps. A must have for every relaxing drive…

 

[WhiteWi]

I have a vision only 2021 MY LR. I've taken 3 short trips driving on expressways - 60 to 100 miles using CC with no other assist and experienced FB on two of the trips. I had read here that it can happen but people made it sound like it was infrequent so I didn't worry about it. It was pretty abrupt the first time and startled me. Not much traffic around so perhaps a shadow from the overpass I was near. Glad no-one was following close. The most recent is today; it happened twice. One was fairly mild the second harder like I was trying to brake. I feel Tesla doesn't have a vision system capable making the TACC work properly much less handle AP nor FSD. Heck they can't even get the auto wipers or auto brights to work effectively as in other cars and auto wipers have been around 30 years. I also get occasional warnings the side camera has a problem, which is probably bright sun hitting it. Not a robust system. I don't use CC when there is much traffic on the road so I can deal with it and my wife won't use any CC, but I'm Anger that I paid $50K for a car with features that that are well developed in the industry yet don't work well.

Low over passes are known trigger even for radar Teslas.

 

[WhiteWi]

Shoot, the phantom braking on the expressway is considered minimal compared to driving on a two lane highway. Before I stopped trying to use TACC on two lane highways I would get around 5 events during a daylight commute, and over a dozen on a night commute... and this is in 26 miles with only 20 miles of that being 2 lane highway. I am just glad I figured out how to work around TACC and still use Auto steering.

One of the things that sucks is that the auto steering works fantastic... but you can't engage just the auto steering without using the horrible TACC as well. If you don't mind controlling speed yourself, but want the car to steer for you just engage AP and dial the TACC down to 20 mph and use your foot to control the speed of the car... no more phantom braking but you have to maintain speed on your own... or use my "speed limit mode" method as described earlier in the thread.

Keith

PS: With either of the work arounds above you still get the "we are all going to die!!!" beeps from the system... but at least it doesn't slam on the brakes.

That is straight up false. Car will kick you out of AP if you try to speed up too much on the AP with go pedal.

 

[drtimhill]

Do I think any mainstream buyer who really understood they were purchasing a car where the cruise control doesn't work, but it might work in a year or two would buy the car? Nope. The expectation from a mainstream car buyer is that when you purchase a car it will work as advertised, not "hopefully work as advertised in a year or two".

Totally agree.

 

[Tha_Ape]

That is straight up false. Car will kick you out of AP if you try to speed up too much on the AP with go pedal.

Did you ever see if you could set your speed to 90mph with 2021.40.6? (and following to "1")

My motives are purely selfish. I have the update waiting, I just dont want to do it if I'm going to lose abilities.

 

[WhiteWi]

Did you ever see if you could set your speed to 90mph with 2021.40.6? (and following to "1")

My motives are purely selfish. I have the update waiting, I just dont want to do it if I'm going to lose abilities.

Didn’t drive yet.

 

[ArchEtech]

That sucks. I’ve hardly noticed anything at all with my 2020.

 

[Fourdoor]

That is straight up false. Car will kick you out of AP if you try to speed up too much on the AP with go pedal.

You assertion is strait up false. I can set TACC to 20 mph and drive at 60 mph with auto steer engaged and I have no doubt it will go up to the 80 mph limit for Auto Pilot that the vision cars have. Where are you getting your false information from?

Keith

 

[WhiteWi]

You assertion is strait up false. I can set TACC to 20 mph and drive at 60 mph with auto steer engaged and I have no doubt it will go up to the 80 mph limit for Auto Pilot that the vision cars have. Where are you getting your false information from?

Keith

What you are doing and recommending is unsafe and will get people in accidents!

 

[ftmaybe]

You assertion is strait up false. I can set TACC to 20 mph and drive at 60 mph with auto steer engaged and I have no doubt it will go up to the 80 mph limit for Auto Pilot that the vision cars have. Where are you getting your false information from?

Keith

I’ve had AP kick me out for aggressively passing on the freeway while it was engaged. I’m not sure if it was because of how far I exceeded the set speed or because of the acceleration…. So I don’t know where that would fall vs what you are setting up there.

That was a drag because after that it wouldn’t let me re-engage even TACC. I had to exit the next off ramp, put the car in park and then back into drive. My car wanted to shame me.