Phantom braking to be investigated

[Undecided_2]

I had a 2015 Ford Explorer Sport in the US when I lived there. The adaptive CC was excellent apart from it disengaging when the speed dropped below 20mph. It was a big vehicle so perhaps that helped as the system was probably mounted high up.

I live in Scotland so unless I’m driving down south I won’t need it day to day.

 

[prabhu]

OTA updates on Teslas have done nothing to improve phantom braking. Buying a new Tesla won’t help either. Tesla are clearly incapable of fixing it.

Tesla AI team is hiring if you've some ideas

 

[Undecided_2]

I wonder what people will say when black boxes are fitted to all new cars at some point this year? They’ll do a lot more than phantom braking. Easy fines for going 1mph over the limit, insurance premiums adjusted automatically without warning amongst over capabilities, automatically cutting the speed of the vehicle and reporting to the police.

We’ll yearn for phantom braking in the near future and miss the good old days!

 

[Roy B]

I wonder what people will say when black boxes are fitted to all new cars at some point this year? They’ll do a lot more than phantom braking. Easy fines for going 1mph over the limit, insurance premiums adjusted automatically without warning amongst over capabilities, automatically cutting the speed of the vehicle and reporting to the police.

We’ll yearn for phantom braking in the near future and miss the good old days!

Source? Otherwise this just sounds like the gutter press sensationalising the upcoming mandatory Intelligent Speed Assist (which is nothing like what you describe)

 

[Undecided_2]

Source? Otherwise this just sounds like the gutter press sensationalising the upcoming mandatory Intelligent Speed Assist (which is nothing like what you describe)

Mandatory speed limiters on UK cars from 2022 | AutoTrader

All new vehicles sold in Europe – including the UK – will be fitted with a mandatory speed limiter from 2022 to keep cars within the UK speed limits and boost road safety.

www.autotrader.co.uk

This has been in the news for some time. If you research the tech it’s clear that it will be able to do much more than just limit speed. The intention is for it to record everything that the car does just like a aeroplane black box.

 

[qwickshot]

Modern cars already record everything you do, that data can be extracted by law enforcement as and when required, usually in the event of a crash.

 

[Kansalis]

This has been in the news for some time. If you research the tech it’s clear that it will be able to do much more than just limit speed. The intention is for it to record everything that the car does just like a aeroplane black box.

This is the key point:

Modern cars already record everything you do, that data can be extracted by law enforcement as and when required, usually in the event of a crash.

While the black box will record everything, the regulations state that the data is used in the event of a crash, not as a constant Big Brother monitoring system. For example, it will report if you were speeding leading up to a crash, but will not routinely send your speed to your insurance company (or the police) all the time.

The speed limiter part seems a bit more confusing. It's termed as a "limiter", but it doesn't actually impose a hard limit. It allows the driver to push through the limit using the accelerator while giving warnings.

Another key point is that it only applies to newly launched cars this year, not all cars bought new until 2024. An excerpt from the Autotrader article linked above:

The European Commission has reached a provisional agreement that all new vehicles sold in Europe will be fitted with a speed limiter as a legal requirement from 6 July 2022. The 2019/2044 regulation also mandates all new cars that have already launched be fitted with an Intelligent Speed Assist (ISA) by 7 July 2024.

The regulation also allows you to turn off the limiter every time you get in the car, though will turn back on every time the car is started.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Why are people comparing the Tesla system to the i3? I don’t see the logic really, compare it to the i4 or iX.

It’s also not a conspiracy bought about by big oil or other manufacturers who advertise. That feels like the last line of defence when nothing more positive can be said on Teslas behalf.

It’s a problem, and Tesla need to face up to it and fix. It’s more than just the specific issue for me, it runs deeply to the philosophy Tesla adopt regarding priorities, testing, development. In many respects Tesla have disrupted the market and haven’t followed the long standing approach to development and all for good, but selling cars and pushing new software to them carries pretty heavy responsibilities. You have to ask why developing new games, music streaming platforms and light shows is more important than solving core driving systems like this, wiper performance and auto high beam.

 

[Kansalis]

You have to ask why developing new games, music streaming platforms and light shows is more important than solving core driving systems like this, wiper performance and auto high beam.

As with any software development on large systems, there will be very different teams of people working on these features. Toybox & media apps will not be developed by the AI team & vice versa. The toybox stuff is obviously much easier to work on and deploy, so will likely seem like it has more priority due to the faster time to market. Fixing AI for things like autopilot will not be trivial.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

As with any software development on large systems, there will be very different teams of people working on these features. Toybox & media apps will not be developed by the AI team & vice versa. The toybox stuff is obviously much easier to work on and deploy, so will likely seem like it has more priority due to the faster time to market. Fixing AI for things like autopilot will not be trivial.

They’ve been an issue for over 5 years. They’ve pushed forward with new autopilot features over that time before fixing the basics. Navigate on autopilot, automatic in the US, was surely a potentially wreck less move when it can’t reliably judge obstacles ahead - that’s just one example. City street navigation, dropping the radar only last year, blind spot visuals, the list goes on.. yet basic TACC is buggy. Not only that, other makes seem to have it sorted.

Edit to add I see the Germans are now investigating lane change.

 

[yessuz]

Modern cars already record everything you do, that data can be extracted by law enforcement as and when required, usually in the event of a crash.

my 2005 SAAB 9-3 had it back then. basically all modern cars have it

In US it is mandatory from 2014

Importance Of Getting Your Vehicle's Black Box Recorder Information | Dugas Law Firm

The technology in newer model vehicles has made the post wreck information as strong as a witness account. The black box recorder have a wealth of info that is reviewable in court.

www.claydugas.com

 

[Undecided_2]

This is the key point:


While the black box will record everything, the regulations state that the data is used in the event of a crash, not as a constant Big Brother monitoring system. For example, it will report if you were speeding leading up to a crash, but will not routinely send your speed to your insurance company (or the police) all the time.

The speed limiter part seems a bit more confusing. It's termed as a "limiter", but it doesn't actually impose a hard limit. It allows the driver to push through the limit using the accelerator while giving warnings.

Another key point is that it only applies to newly launched cars this year, not all cars bought new until 2024. An excerpt from the Autotrader article linked above:



The regulation also allows you to turn off the limiter every time you get in the car, though will turn back on every time the car is started.

The thing that I don’t understand is why they just don’t limit cars to the national speed limit? Why all the need for such equipment? Limit all cars to 70mph job done.

Admittedly the tech Louis going to be reviewed up to 2025 but the legislation also includes some nice little additions.

Other measures included in the legislation​

The new provisional EU regulations also include other compulsory safety equipment such as autonomous emergency braking, data loggers (black box technology), emergency stop signal, driver fatigue detection system, lane keep assist, built-in breathalysers which won’t let you start the car if you fail, and reversing sensors or cameras.

 

[yessuz]

The thing that I don’t understand is why they just don’t limit cars to the national speed limit? Why all the need for such equipment? Limit all cars to 70mph job done.

Admittedly the tech Louis going to be reviewed up to 2025 but the legislation also includes some nice little additions.

Other measures included in the legislation​

The new provisional EU regulations also include other compulsory safety equipment such as autonomous emergency braking, data loggers (black box technology), emergency stop signal, driver fatigue detection system, lane keep assist, built-in breathalysers which won’t let you start the car if you fail, and reversing sensors or cameras.

but all these are in more or less all new modern cars. Maybe not in the lowest spec'ed ones, but all these are there already. apart from the speed limiter and breathalyzer.
Breathalyzer is good, but wonder how this will work (and probably easily bypassed if you always drink and drive...)

regarding speed limiter - well they cannot, because there MIGHT be situations when you have to exceed the limit. plus all the police chases would be boring as hell

 

[Timcat]

Actual phantom braking is realy a thing (literally stamping on the brakes at 70) but pretty rare even on these forums..

It isn't rare in my M3P (i.e., stamping on the brakes at 70mph and suddenly losing about 20mph). It happens at least once in every extended motorway drive in which I use TACC or Autopilot. It happened so frequently in heavy traffic that I simply disengage both in these conditions.

 

[Tigermad]

I never understand why some people say they have never had a phantom braking episode. How can that be? Surely all Tesla M3s should be affected.

 

[qwickshot]

I can’t say I have never had phantom braking but I certainly don’t get the volumes that some people report on here. I drove nearly 500 miles last weekend and it didn’t happen once and the auto wipers worked fine.

What I do get is the TACC deciding at certain locations to change its set speed (chopping 30-40mph off!), probably due to dodgy map data. Perhaps people confuse that for phantom braking events?

 

[UkNorthampton]

I can’t say I have never had phantom braking but I certainly don’t get the volumes that some people report on here. I drove nearly 500 miles last weekend and it didn’t happen once and the auto wipers worked fine.

What I do get is the TACC deciding at certain locations to change its set speed (chopping 30-40mph off!), probably due to dodgy map data. Perhaps people confuse that for phantom braking events?

I changed mine to do current speed after motorway driving with wrong speed limits.

Model Y Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Traffic-Aware Cruise Control and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

Choose whether you want Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to engage at the detected speed limit, or your current driving speed. Touch Controls > Autopilot > Set Speed and choose either Speed Limit or Current Speed.

 

[Undecided_2]

I changed mine to do current speed after motorway driving with wrong speed limits.

Model Y Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Traffic-Aware Cruise Control and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

I've just read the manual that you posted. It appears that they explain clearly the limitations of the TACC. and warnings of what may happen.

Warning
Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may occasionally cause Model Y to brake when not required or when you are not expecting it. This can be caused by closely following a vehicle ahead, detecting vehicles or objects in adjacent lanes (especially on curves), etc.

Warning
Due to limitations inherent in the onboard GPS (Global Positioning System), you may experience situations in which Model Y slows down, especially near exits or off-ramps where a curve is detected and/or you are navigating to a destination and not following the route.

 

[Alex987854]

I never understand why some people say they have never had a phantom braking episode. How can that be? Surely all Tesla M3s should be affected.

So far, in more than two years I have not had a phantom braking episode. I've had it slow by 5mph or so, and the odd non phantom episode where a truck has moved over too far.

The problem is that it's always an edge case, which will be affected by tiny differences in the camera settings and probably a butterfly flapping its wings somewhere.

 

[Mrklaw]

Does the i3 rely on cameras alone? I ask because my last two BMWs had adaptive cruise and the system was essentially flawless, unlike the TACC in my M3.

I wonder if radar/adaptive cruise in older cars relies solely on whats in front of you with radar backup. Tesla seems to get spooked by shadows which may be vision related, and trucks two lanes over suddenly jumping towards you in the visualisation - perhaps a parallax/pillar mirror issue. Both would be not issues with cars without cameras. I don't even know why TACC needs to see cars to your left unless they start crossing into your path. If the simpler older solutions worked solidly, why change them?