Phantom braking will get a lot worse before it gets better

[electronblue]

Arguably, other automakers are being more cavalier than Tesla by not appending the label to their driver assistance systems.

Strong disagree. I take it you do not own a Tesla? Have you owned any car with TACC or similar? The phantom braking alone is so vastly more dangerous in a Tesla than in any other car I know and worse still its intensity and frequency keeps changing over time which does not happen in other cars.

I get the idea that Tesla’s lane keeping at its best certainly can be industry leading but even that has a tendency to be more dangerous because it is less predictable than many others and keeps changing all the time to better and to worse. The competition may be more limited in many ways but they are also vastly more conservative — and thus vastly less cavalier.

 

[strangecosmos]

Elon, in Master Plan, Part Deux:

“It is also important to explain why we refer to Autopilot as "beta". This is not beta software in any normal sense of the word. Every release goes through extensive internal validation before it reaches any customers. It is called beta in order to decrease complacency and indicate that it will continue to improve (Autopilot is always off by default). Once we get to the point where Autopilot is approximately 10 times safer than the US vehicle average, the beta label will be removed.”​

 

[acoste]

Elon, in Master Plan, Part Deux:

“It is also important to explain why we refer to Autopilot as "beta". This is not beta software in any normal sense of the word. Every release goes through extensive internal validation before it reaches any customers. It is called beta in order to decrease complacency and indicate that it will continue to improve (Autopilot is always off by default). Once we get to the point where Autopilot is approximately 10 times safer than the US vehicle average, the beta label will be removed.”​

Of course he says that. He is an excellent marketing guy.

 

[Boatguy]

Of course he says that. He is an excellent marketing guy.

I think the "excellent marketing guy" has been revealed to be just another con man. Speaking for myself, four years of unfulfilled promises have destroyed his credibility. BS #1 is the "constant improvement" myth. My new S100D is actually a worse car than my 2016 S90D; the only real improvement is about 30miles of range. V9 of the software is literally worse than V7.

Besides the phantom braking in the Tesla AP s/w (compared with the Mobileye s/w), my S100D "powers down" at random times, like during a five minute stop at the post office, then takes a minute to "power up" when I return to the car.

I have a friend with a 2015 P85 who refuses to allow Tesla to update his software. When it goes to the service center it's covered with stickers telling them not to update the software. I thought he was kind of crazy, but it turns out he was very wise.

 

[run-the-joules]

Well, this turned out to be a prescient thread based on my current experiences

 

[boonedocks]

I think the "excellent marketing guy" has been revealed to be just another con man. Speaking for myself, four years of unfulfilled promises have destroyed his credibility. BS #1 is the "constant improvement" myth. My new S100D is actually a worse car than my 2016 S90D; the only real improvement is about 30miles of range. V9 of the software is literally worse than V7.

Besides the phantom braking in the Tesla AP s/w (compared with the Mobileye s/w), my S100D "powers down" at random times, like during a five minute stop at the post office, then takes a minute to "power up" when I return to the car.

I have a friend with a 2015 P85 who refuses to allow Tesla to update his software. When it goes to the service center it's covered with stickers telling them not to update the software. I thought he was kind of crazy, but it turns out he was very wise.

But wait......we about to get a new web browser hahahahaha. Said in a very sarcastic kinda agree with you way

 

[conman]

But wait......we about to get a new web browser hahahahaha.

And for some of us in other parts of the world, we don't even get that, as we have no browser at all...

 

[electronblue]

BS #1 is the "constant improvement" myth. My new S100D is actually a worse car than my 2016 S90D;

It is not so much a myth than a misunderstanding: they are constantly improving things for Tesla’s short-term bottom line and demand levers.

 

[realvvk]

2011 Prius I recently traded in for a Model 3 -- a vehicle that was released without a beta label before the Model S even existed -- had fully functioning radar-based adaptive cruise control, camera-based lane keep assist, autopark, pre-collision, and AEB systems. All of them functioned exactly as they were advertised to function from the day I bought the car.

I keep hearing this from owners of non-Teslas that have these features. I am genuinely curious about this, so please don't take it the wrong way. I have test driven many non-Teslas equipped with AP-equivalent technology. On these test drives I specifically tried using these systems the way I use the AP in my Model S. I failed every time. First, the UI. It takes two or three presses of tiny buttons to turn on adaptive cruise control/lane assist. While doing this, I cannot seem to find these buttons without looking, especially if the steering wheel is not pointing straight. Second, assuming I have the ability to find these two/three tiny buttons to turn on the "AP," invariably the system fails within a few hundred feet. One way or another a sharp curve, another car, an imperfect lane marking or a curb would trip up the non-Tesla system and I would have to take over. My Model S autopilot is useful in MOST situations. It is on 95% of the time. It handles everything. I can just sit there and watch the road, completely relaxed. Also, I can turn it on and off without any delay, without looking, without thinking, which the steering wheel in any position. Other than on a straight highway with light traffic or slow moving traffic without lights, curves, lane changes, etc., I have not been able to use any non-Tesla "AP" system for more that a minute or two at a time. Has anyone ever used a non-Tesla "AP" the way we can use Tesla AP for 95% of our commute?

 

[hcdavis3]

I think the "excellent marketing guy" has been revealed to be just another con man. Speaking for myself, four years of unfulfilled promises have destroyed his credibility. BS #1 is the "constant improvement" myth. My new S100D is actually a worse car than my 2016 S90D; the only real improvement is about 30miles of range. V9 of the software is literally worse than V7.

Besides the phantom braking in the Tesla AP s/w (compared with the Mobileye s/w), my S100D "powers down" at random times, like during a five minute stop at the post office, then takes a minute to "power up" when I return to the car.

I have a friend with a 2015 P85 who refuses to allow Tesla to update his software. When it goes to the service center it's covered with stickers telling them not to update the software. I thought he was kind of crazy, but it turns out he was very wise.

I was thinking the same of my Model 3. Everything’s working so well I don’t want to muck things up with new firmware which although has been tested by the software team will more likely than not turn me into a beta tester.

 

[rnortman]

I keep hearing this from owners of non-Teslas that have these features. I am genuinely curious about this, so please don't take it the wrong way. I have test driven many non-Teslas equipped with AP-equivalent technology. On these test drives I specifically tried using these systems the way I use the AP in my Model S. I failed every time.

I could respond to all of this but it misses the point of my post. I was responding to @strangecosmos 's assertion that the other auto manufacturers were being "cavalier" for not labeling their driver assistance features beta. I was not arguing that other manufacturer's systems are more capable than or even as capable as Tesla's. I was responding only to that ridiculous and nonsensical assertion.

 

[realvvk]

I could respond to all of this but it misses the point of my post. I was responding to @strangecosmos 's assertion that the other auto manufacturers were being "cavalier" for not labeling their driver assistance features beta. I was not arguing that other manufacturer's systems are more capable than or even as capable as Tesla's. I was responding only to that ridiculous and nonsensical assertion.

I know you were, that is fine. I am just curious about your take on non-Tesla "AP."

 

[rnortman]

I know you were, that is fine. I am just curious about your take on non-Tesla "AP."

So, you want me to compare the driver assistance feature from my 2011 Prius, with my 2017 Model S, which was manufactured probably 7 years later (because of how Toyota model years work) and cost more than 3x as much when new?

Sure, I can do that. The Prius system was much less capable, though in certain safety features I think it was pretty close -- particularly the AEB system seemed pretty good. The adaptive cruise control in the Prius only worked above 25mph so it was useless in stop & go traffic, but newer Prius systems work down to 0mph just like the Tesla. I found it easy enough to activate the features, though you did have to push a couple of thumb buttons on the steering wheel once per drive in order to enable them -- they disabled each time you turned the car off. I developed this habit quickly so not a big deal. Activating the cruise on the Prius was just as easy as it is on the Tesla.

So with respect to performance, the biggest difference is comfort and surprise. The Prius adaptive cruise control was much more limited in scope -- when you were going above 45mph, it made no effort to stop for stopped cars. It was a highway cruise system, and this was explicitly out of scope. When used as intended, it was silky smooth, felt very safe, and never ever surprised me with "phantom braking". It made long highway drives so much less stressful.

No, let's compare to Autopilot. Tesla's TACC tries to do much more, plus Autosteer. But the things it's trying to do, sometimes, are a bit of a stretch for it still. So you get false positives and surprising behavior -- very, very frequently in fact. It happens to me at least once on my daily commute -- meaning 2x per day -- plus frequently on long highway drives. Sometimes what it does is outright unsafe -- sudden braking or swerving in a way that surprises other drivers can cause accidents. Sometimes it's just surprising in a really unpleasant, stressful, adrenaline-releasing way that causes my wife to ask me to please turn it off and drive manually. In other words, sometimes TACC/Autosteer add to my stress. The Prius TACC, due to being much more conservative in its scope, never ever added to my stress in this way.

That said, after owning the Model S for a while we traded in that old Prius for a Model 3. We did not pay for FSD -- what a joke -- but we did get EAP. It's a better system than that old 2011 Prius had. But... it's not that much better than ADAS systems in other comparably-priced cars on the market today. You can get very good adaptive cruise control and lane keeping systems even in cheaper cars. But those cars of course won't be BEVs, or won't be a BEV you'd probably want to own, so that was the deciding factor for us.

In other words, don't buy a Tesla for EAP. Definitely don't buy it for FSD. Do buy it because it's the best BEV on the market today, if that's what you want.

 

[MTOman]

In other words, don't buy a Tesla for EAP.

What car (EV or ICE) would you recommend with EAP (or whatever their marketing dept calls it) that works better than a Tesla? I would love to test drive one that performs better but I'm not a car guy so I don't know much about the other offerings, I just assumed Tesla was the best out there right now. The only one I've heard that is arguably better than Tesla is Supercruise by Cadillac but I've also heard it's very limited in that it only works on certain highways. I'm looking for something I can use almost all the time like I use AP now. Any recommendations are appreciated!

 

[electronblue]

What car (EV or ICE) would you recommend with EAP (or whatever their marketing dept calls it) that works better than a Tesla? I would love to test drive one that performs better but I'm not a car guy so I don't know much about the other offerings, I just assumed Tesla was the best out there right now. The only one I've heard that is arguably better than Tesla is Supercruise by Cadillac but I've also heard it's very limited in that it only works on certain highways. I'm looking for something I can use almost all the time like I use AP now. Any recommendations are appreciated!

One of the new EyeQ4 based BMWs would probably be the ticket. @Bladerskb had the latest on which model had it in the U.S...

 

[MTOman]

I hope he chimes in. I did a quick search and couldn't find much, though I did find this:

"New BMW and VW vehicles launching in 2018 will be the first equipped with the updated Mobileye EyeQ4 chips and software that are capable of collecting REM data. BMW currently plans to launch its first highly automated vehicles with SAE Level 4 capability around 2021."
​

Unfortunately it doesn't specify which models and I can't find anything else about it. Would love to schedule a test drive in the next week or two to see how much better the competition really is!

 

[electronblue]

@MTOman I haven’t driven the latest myself so I don’t know if it is better than EAP by whatever standard you hold dear yourself but it is probably the most interesting new entrant at the moment from the traditional automakers ADAS-wise.

 

[MTOman]

I understand better can be subjective but if EyeQ4 is really that much more advanced the differences should be obvious immediately. If I have to search for ways in which it's superior that's not going to be enough to make me consider buying.

I'll do some more research but if anyone here happens to know of a particular model car I can test drive to see the superior technology I'd love to know.

 

[electronblue]

I understand better can be subjective but if EyeQ4 is really that much more advanced the differences should be obvious immediately. If I have to search for ways in which it's superior that's not going to be enough to make me consider buying.

I'll do some more research but if anyone here happens to know of a particular model car I can test drive to see the superior technology I'd love to know.

The EyeQ4 chip definitely is much more advanced in its capabilities but not even BMW uses all that capability yet, but still should be interesting.

 

[rnortman]

What car (EV or ICE) would you recommend with EAP (or whatever their marketing dept calls it) that works better than a Tesla? I would love to test drive one that performs better but I'm not a car guy so I don't know much about the other offerings, I just assumed Tesla was the best out there right now.

I'm not a car guy either! I would rather not own a car at all. It's funny, everybody who sees me roll up in a Tesla assumes I'm a car guy, but really I'm actually embarrassed to be driving such an expensive car. You did notice that I was driving a Prius before the Tesla? In fact we had two Priuses -- a 2005 and a 2011. The 2005 got traded in 2017 for the S and the 2011 last fall for the 3. We bought both of those Priuses used even. These are the first "nice" cars we've owned.

I know that the 2017 Prius made no claims to being able to stop for stopped cars when over, I believe, 45mph. AEB would kick in to mitigate the impact, but the ACC in highway mode did not stop for stopped cars. At lower speeds (stop & go traffic) it would. So that is not as good as the Tesla, which (sometimes) stops for stopped cars (and sometimes doesn't, especially fire trucks). The benefit of not even trying to do this is that, I assume, the Prius would have been largely immune to phantom braking, which is mostly caused by false positives on stopped vehicles in your path. Since I can't rely on the Tesla to stop either, I think I would currently disable this feature if I could, to avoid the false positives.

Here's a funny story. Before we pulled the trigger on the 3, I tried to test-drive a 2017 Prius to compare it's ADAS capabilities -- which were purportedly much better than the 2011 model, including ACC in stop-and-go traffic, radar-based blind spot warning and rear cross-traffic alert, and pedestrian detection. This was 2018 already so the 2017 was being sold as used. I drove a long way to the dealer and the Prius was blocked in by other cars, and they couldn't find the keys for those cars. They told me to come back later, after making me wait an hour. -- and they knew I was coming to test drive that because I'd called and talked to them ahead of time. They weren't even apologetic about it.

I went home and ordered a 3 that night. Car dealers, including Tesla, are just so effing incompetent and infuriating sometimes.

I do remember one thing about sitting in the 2017 Prius, even though I didn't get to drive it. There were so. many. buttons. Buttons everywhere. So many buttons. And also a small screen, but mostly buttons buttons buttons. I'm a rather tech-savvy person (a professional in fact) but all those buttons made my head swim. This was also a contributing factor to my decision to give up on the Prius. It's not a good reason, but it certainly influenced me in the moment.