Phantom Braking

[Mardak]

it just stopped in an intersection as it tried to run through a yellow light

This one is pretty straightforward. FSD Beta sees/predicts a red light probably from the fisheye camera, which can see quite a bit upwards. Here's an example where it can still see a red light even when already in the crosswalk exiting the intersection:

Why doesn't FSD Beta ignore the light if it's already in the intersection? I suppose it's probably safer to react to a red light by braking than assuming one has right of way, but yes Tesla will need to address inappropriate braking for this and many other situations.

The neural networks already predict whether a traffic light is relevant to the current lane, so maybe if traffic light detections are uprevved to 360º video with memory potentially as part of FSD Beta 11, it could better understand that the vehicle is exiting the intersection instead of entering.

 

[DayTrippin]

I have had a Toyota Prius rental car with adaptive cruise. I have used their version of TACC for several hundred miles in the same exact roads I drove my Tesla. How many phantom braking events have I had with it? Not a single one. Zero, zip, nada.

If a Prius can do it better than a Model Y, then maybe Tesla shouldn't have rolled out radar less cars until they had vision totally ready to roll.

 

[Raurele]

Phantom Braking is real and out of control.
Last week driving down interstate TACC on. Nothing near me. Relaxed happy enjoying the car…….WHAM!
it slammed on the damn brakes so hard my wife and I were pushed into our Inertial reel locked seated belts so hard my hands came off the steering wheel and our heads were thrown forward. Almost instantly the brakes released, the car surges forward and out heads are flung back. A nerve was pinched in my neck during that whiplash and now my right shoulder muscle has been tensed up for days.
Absolute bullsh!t.

guess what? It happened again today.
This crap system needs to be fixed, auto braking disabled, or pulled off the market.
How can ANYBODY think this is OK?

Teslas are braking in response to imagined road obstacles

The phenomenon is called "phantom braking," and it's been an issue since October.

www.protocol.com

I call bullshit. Especially the acceleration part. It just doesn’t to that.

 

[FirstInTown]

To say it's the same as others is just giving Tesla coverage. Didn't even know phantom braking was a thing until got the X. And all our other cars have Adaptive Cruise or what the manufacturer calls it. Thinking the NHTSB needs to know my experience. (27 brake events on a 55 mph 2 lane road in 10 miles.) And it's not getting better. Like they don't care. Say it is in the FSB release notes, but new version did 13 brakes in 4 miles, so no. TACC is pretty much useless cruise right now on a 100k car!

 

[FirstInTown]

Thing is Auto Speed Control Cruise was such a game changed when got first 2017 Chevy Volt, we then sold 2011 Caddy w/o it and replaced with same Caddy but a 2015 with Adaptive cruise. Cars Had to have ACC. Also sold summer cruiser 2005 Mustang GT for a 2016 Mustang GT with Adaptive Cruise. Have driven many rentals with it. Heck Daughter's $21k Kia has WAY better Adaptive cruise right now! ONLY OUR TESLA REPEATEDLY BRAKES FOR NO REASON! Really disappointing! Blame the radar that everyone else successfully uses, whatever. Vision only is no better, probably worse. But hey, more games and a worse UI for Christmas this year. Way to spend precious resources.

 

[smoke003]

Are you suggesting that all the accounts of phantom braking we've been hearing about here and elsewhere may not be true?

Do you have evidence?

 

[CarlThompson]

Are you suggesting that all the accounts of phantom braking we've been hearing about here and elsewhere may not be true?

Do you have evidence?

Yes. All the accounts of phantom braking we've been hearing about here and elsewhere. That IS evidence.

 

[Knightshade]

I have had a Toyota Prius rental car with adaptive cruise. I have used their version of TACC for several hundred miles in the same exact roads I drove my Tesla. How many phantom braking events have I had with it? Not a single one. Zero, zip, nada.

If a Prius can do it better than a Model Y, then maybe Tesla shouldn't have rolled out radar less cars until they had vision totally ready to roll.

Except in general a Prius (or anything else) does not do better.

This is the problem with anecdotes.

I can count on one hand the # of actual "phantom" braking events I've had in tens of thousands of miles of driving on TACC and AP.

And even those were relatively SMALL drops in actual speed.... surprising for sure, but a 10-15 mph slowdown... not OMG SLAMMED ME INTO THE BELTS AND GAVE ME WHIPLASH...BOTH WAYS! stuff.

But some other guys insists that happens to em all the time.




As noted you'll find the same reports of phantom braking from Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Subaru, basically every brand of car

It's all anecdotal- because just like with Tesla it's typically a small minority of the time and an even smaller minority who complain about it.

But it's an inherent problem with this tech on all cars.

Toyota included.

For example:

Recall: Pre-Collision System (PCS)

Is this PCS issue happening on 2019’s? We have had our Tundra for 6 weeks. Its never flashed any warnings or applied brake automatically. We have not...

www.tundras.com

Not Prius specific, but Toyota- 8 page thread on a recall on their pre-collison system including owners complaining about phantom braking from it, and even worse AFTER the recall...



Examples:

the big orange brake light comes on and then the truck brakes dramatically on its own, just shy of slamming on the brakes....that is a safety issue.

During my first year of ownership with my 2018, I had maybe 4 or 5 phantom "BRAKE!" alerts. Nothing in front of me. A couple times, the PCS system would go offline during heavy rain.

So I get the recall done about a week and a half ago. I haven't had the PCS go offline, but I've had about 7 or 8 phantom "BRAKE!" alerts. So whatever they did during the recall made things much, much worse.

I've had mine hit the brakes a few times on its own before I had the recall done. Mostly during a curve for a four lane highway headed home. It seems a car, going in the same direction as I am, but in the other lane than I am

Same happens to me on curves...Also happens with cars coming in the opposite direction on curves.

Also Toyota (well, Lexus)

Anyone with PCS having an issue? - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion

NX - 1st Gen (2015-2021) - Anyone with PCS having an issue? - I am still having a problem with the PCS going off randomly. It does it about 3x day now, and I don't put that many miles on the car each day. So, I'm estimating that within a 20-mile span the PCS goes off about 3 times. I've had...

www.clublexus.com

I am still having a problem with the PCS going off randomly. It does it about 3x day now...This happens even when there is no other traffic around.

Pre-Collision System (PCS) engaged for no reason while crossing metal drawbridge - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion

ES - 6th Gen (2013-2018) - Pre-Collision System (PCS) engaged for no reason while crossing metal drawbridge - I purchased my 2013 ES300h UL with PCS, LDA last week. It happened 3 times already. While crossing the metal drawbridge in my area, the small display screen turns Red with rapid beeps...

www.clublexus.com

It happened 3 times already. While crossing the metal drawbridge in my area, the small display screen turns Red with rapid beeps. The car immediately decelerated and I even felt it is braking by itself. The seat belt was tightening also

Heck, Toyota actually recalled a bunch of Toyota AND Lexus vehicles because it might brake if it notices any metal as part of the roadway

In these vehicles, the PCS may unexpectedly activate and apply the brakes when the radar detects a steel joint or plate in the roadway as an object.

So this keeps being a problem everybody- radar or not- has.

Tesla removed radar to try and improve the issue--- since it would at least avoid false positives like that Toyota/Lexus recall I cite above.

 

[smoke003]

Yes. All the accounts of phantom braking we've been hearing about here and elsewhere. That IS evidence.

Yup, that works for me. This True.

 

[RickCRNA]

Try to google “Tesla phantom braking” and educate yourself.

 

[Sporty]

Again, it's not unique to Tesla, and many other brands have even more complaints, lawsuits, recalls, and attributed accidents over it.

it's inherent to all versions of active cruise control from all car makers. Some are worse than others, but existing data does not support the idea Teslas is one of those.

See the example from Nissan I posted just a couple posts above yours- significantly MORE complaints, plus reports of actual accidents (which Tesla had 0 of from the data) and on a smaller total fleet of vehicles.

Why does that matter? 2 wrongs make it right?

Many other cars get it right. Shouldn’t we want Telsa to compete with whatever is best in class?

 

[Knightshade]

Why does that matter? 2 wrongs make it right?

Many other cars get it right.

except they don't

That's the fact you keep refusing to admit despite mountains of evidence.

every brand has problems with phantom braking and assisted cruise systems

Shouldn’t we want Telsa to compete with whatever is best in class?

They do.

In fact for actual capabilities and performance Consumer Reports rated Teslas autopilot #1 in the industry.

(then, since they're CR and dislike Tesla, they knocked down the "overall" score because Tesla didn't do enough driver monitoring.... of course once Tesla fixed THAT with a free OTA update CR didn't like THAT either, bringing up privacy concerns despite having asked for the feature)

 

[pg3ttt]

There was so much hope expressed:

Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

Well this is good news!

teslamotorsclub.com

But the Verge says:

"The problem may be traced to the controversial decision last year to remove radar sensors from new Model 3 and Model Y vehicles. The decision came after Musk publicly expressed a desire to rely on cameras to power the company’s advanced driver assistance system."

So... Is Pure VIsion an upgrade or a downgrade?

I'll bet that the decision to go 'pure vision' is primarily to remove the complexity of integrating sensors. I think that a goal of being able to meet the minimum requirement of being safer than the average human with only 'pure vision' is appropriate and may be the only viable path forward for existing cars and those now in production given how long this effort has been going on. Hopefully, the software team is not managing endless tradeoffs between computationally intensive tasks to stay within the limitations of the computer. Once the goal is achieved, maybe radar will be back, and when the economics of more capable computers and sensors justify additional integration developments, additional development will certainly make AI driving far safer for everyone on and near the road, including for deer and other animals.

 

[Sporty]

except they don't

That's the fact you keep refusing to admit despite mountains of evidence.

every brand has problems with phantom braking and assisted cruise systems






They do.

In fact for actual capabilities and performance Consumer Reports rated Teslas autopilot #1 in the industry.

(then, since they're CR and dislike Tesla, they knocked down the "overall" score because Tesla didn't do enough driver monitoring.... of course once Tesla fixed THAT with a free OTA update CR didn't like THAT either, bringing up privacy concerns despite having asked for the feature)


View attachment 764173

That CR rating is from 2020 and was before phantom breaking was a thing for me. In fact AP was good then. Impressive even. Since getting some update (likely vision-only) it’s no longer good.

I’ve not had other cars phantom brake on me when using adaptive cruise control. (They don’t steer… just go the set speed with a following distance if someone happens to be in front). My current M3 experience is below what my many years old bmw used to do.

 

[pg3ttt]

It seems odd to me that these reports are popping up just now. While I agree that FSD Beta phantom braking is still pretty atrocious, on the highway it almost never happens to me anymore. The vision-based approach has definitely improved with time.

I agree. Phantom braking seems far better lately.

 

[FirstInTown]

If all these other brands did this all the time, how come in 4 years of driving ACC cruise systems, I never knew this was a problem until we got a Tesla? Sure just a person's experience but I didn't even know it was a thing until got the X. And it reminds us all the time of this deficiency.

 

[pg3ttt]

How about some praise for appropriate braking? Two days ago, I was in heavy traffic after dark. My Y started braking and I took control only to realize that it had seen a jaywalker dressing in dark clothing before I had seen him. That is not the only time similar situations have happened lately. I think we are seeing commendable progress.

 

[Knightshade]

That CR rating is from 2020 and was before phantom breaking was a thing for me.

And yet it was "a thing" for everyone, of every brand, for years and years, a tiny # would experience it, most would not, across brands.


Again it's why personal anecdotes aren't useful here.

You can find people complaining about phantom braking on every brand of car with these systems.

Just as every time there's a Tesla software update you'll get some people insisting their car gained range and power and AP is better, and people with THE SAME MODEL AND SOFTWARE insisting they lost range, lost power, and AP is worse.

Humans are really bad measuring devices


Case in point- YOU claim it's gotten worse lately.

This guy says the opposite-

I agree. Phantom braking seems far better lately.

I’ve not had other cars phantom brake on me when using adaptive cruise control. (They don’t steer… just go the set speed with a following distance if someone happens to be in front). My current M3 experience is below what my many years old bmw used to do.

BMW you say?

Emergency Braking for no reason!!!

Emergency Braking for no reason!!!

x3.xbimmers.com

Have you ever experienced an emergency braking without any obstacles ahead like the title?
My car suddenly put on emergency braking with no obstacles in front of it while driving. The seat belt was pulled down and the speed decreased rapidly.

That happened once with my 2018 M40i. I was driving on a straight road about 45 mph. There was a change in pavement color from dark to slightly lighter (or vice versa). The emergency brake system engaged

or

Ghost braking

www.bimmerfest.com

I was driving down the left side (free of all traffic) of a two lane setup. The right lane was all backed up in a line. Nothing in front of me, was doing about 25mph. No pedestrians, nothing that I could see on the road and WHAM, the car decides it is time to stop.

I have a GMC with the same system. The same exact thing happened to me twice.

I've found a few times the collision warning loud beeps have gone off for no particular reason

This.
Happens.
To.
Every.
Brand.

 

[Knightshade]

If all these other brands did this all the time, how come in 4 years of driving ACC cruise systems, I never knew this was a problem until we got a Tesla?

Well, let's see... you told us what you had before-

Thing is Auto Speed Control Cruise was such a game changed when got first 2017 Chevy Volt

Oh look- reports of phantom braking by Volt owners!

Emergency braking

www.gm-volt.com

the Volt red-light on the dashboard starting flashing and the car just briefly slammed its brakes. She was surprised, not seeing any threat.

this happened to me once driving on the 805 in mid afternoon sun going under a bridge with wooden tressels (bridge construction) that broke up the sunlight and I think that was the cause of my forward collision alert being activated

My ELR applied (not slammed) on the brakes once because of headlight reflection on a metal construction plate going across the road.

Near my house there is an expansion joint between the road and a bridge. It's a pretty good bump, but not so much that you can't take it at speed (45). My last car would consistently think that was something in the road, and beep and flash the warning light at me. Before it hit the brakes

, we then sold 2011 Caddy w/o it and replaced with same Caddy but a 2015 with Adaptive cruise.

Caddy you say?

Brakes applying by themselves at HWY speeds? Please help!!

www.cadillacforums.com

.ive been plagued by a phantom braking problem that's becoming really dangerous. While driving, the brakes will all of a sudden come on all by themselves without me putting ANY pressure on the brake pedal.

Auto Braking Issue

www.cadillacforums.com

the car decides to auto brake and scare the crap out of me and whoever else is in the car.

This happens to my '17 3.0TT but it's worse.

Just like the original poster my new 2016 CT6 exhibits the same problem

Also sold summer cruiser 2005 Mustang GT for a 2016 Mustang GT with Adaptive Cruise.

Ford?

Phantom Braking: Experienced in the MachE for the First Time (7 months in)

I have had my car almost 7 months now. Car has been pretty much perfect. No issues. PAAK works well for me so for whatever reason I've escaped the hardships some people have had with their year one vehicles. However on Friday while driving to the Bay Area on Highway 80 I experienced phantom...

www.macheforum.com

on Friday while driving to the Bay Area on Highway 80 I experienced phantom braking, not once but twice.

I had to turn off ICC because it did something similar.

Yeah I've also had ICC notice phantom speed limits and brake hard.

I have had the car freak out on me once where it slowed me down, not too abrupt, but was enough to jerk us around a little. Then it speed backup for maybe 2 seconds, then braked again and slowed us down.

Heck Daughter's $21k Kia has WAY better Adaptive cruise right now!

Kia?

Sudden Deceleration When Using Cruise Control

www.kia-forums.com

My 2014 Sorento has an intermittent issue with deceleration while using cruise control

Problems with Advanced Smart Cruise Control

www.kia-forums.com

2017 Sorronto Cruise

With my Cruise control on, the car starts to apply the brakes

I had the exact same problem the day before yesterday. It happened twice within an hour.

I have exactly this problem too :-( Happens after about 20 miles with it active.

Frontal Collision Warning - Malfunction

Thanks for checking in, and I appreciate the support. After two months of nonsense, the vehicle is finally going to be replaced and hopefully this will all be wrapped up within a week or two. Fortunately, the dealership has been great throughout this entire process, fully supported my...

tellurideforum.org

I am afraid I am going to get rear-ended. As tonight it even braked while I was travelling straight through an intersection.

When travelling about 50-70 km an hour the vehicle will randomly apply the brakes without warning.

the Forward Collision Warning is misfiring without any kind of threat, is taking control of the engine, and is slowing down the vehicle at speeds greater than 45/50 MPH, including highway speeds of more than 70+ MPH.

Tell me again how it's "only a tesla problem"

 

[FirstInTown]

Volt ref was also the ELR which is gen 1 Caddy version of a Volt. Did they improve for Gen 2 that I have? I know the 2019 Volt ACC is smoother approaching a car than the 2017 and that is better than the 2015 Caddy, so GM is also improving the systems with time.

Caddy, again what year and what version?

Ford, the 2016 Mustang HAS blinked it warning lights a couple times, but nothing like the Tesla.

Kia, daughters is a 2019, you referenced 2014 and 2017. Did they improve over the years?

All I know is Wife NEVER EVER asked "what is this car slamming on the brakes for" before we got the Tesla.