Phantom Braking

[sleepydoc]

Thanks DrPhil, but that was me saying, not saying what others are saying, or might be saying.

I brake all the time (slow down) when passing a big rig on a 2 lane road like in the video, for the last 30 years of driving.
Why do you think I posed that to begin with?

I don’t want my adaptive cruise control to slow down when it approaches another vehicle. Real drivers actually speed up when they get closer as they get into the draft and then swing across lanes and pass them by.

Well, you're also contradicting yourself, so either you're confused, flip-flopping or just being a troll. my guess is troll (mainly because of the hair)

 

[sleepydoc]

Me neither. I do however, ease over to the right side of the lane to reduce air buffeting.

Just to check, I asked 4 or 5 different people at work today if they slow down when approaching a truck on a 2 lane highway. They all looked at me like I was crazy and asked "no, why would I do that?"

 

[qdeathstar]

This really says it all(while simultaneously making me laugh)
From the thread in this forum that says "i got 100 score, but still no beta access". Phantom braking is SO bad...its being ranked as unsafe (via scoring) by THE SAME SOFTWARE THAT NEEDS SAFETY.

But it isn’t true. The safety score is not affected when you are driving on auto

I’ve had several incidents where it slams on the brakes, and I can verify that it was actual braking because it was 5ºF outside and I had no regenerative braking (if I let my foot off the accelerator, the car would just coast.

Got video? None of the videos I have ever seen show this.

 

[Supcom]

Agreed - it depends on how you define 'slams.' The brakes don't lock up but it's hard enough that everyone in the car lurches forward and passengers exclaim something to the effect of "jeez! what was that?"

I have had plenty of incidents of PB that I would characterize as slamming on the brakes. Since Tesla brakes should not lock up under any circumstances, the distinction between hard braking and slamming on the brakes is a semantic argument. Suffice to say, most people who have experienced a full grand mal phantom braking event would say that the car slammed on the brakes. When you are thrown forward and the car is beeping loudly, what else would you call it??

Fortunately, I have experienced virtually no events like this in over a month. And not for lack of trying to create one by driving on many high speed two lane roads with plenty of opposing truck traffic. Whatever Tesla is doing appears to be making good progress on eliminating PB events.

 

[2101Guy]

Tesla owner/driver: “my Tesla slowed on its own while on autopilot/FSDfrom 60mph to 35mph in less than 2 seconds AND it startled my passengers in the car at the time and everything from the backseat was thrown to the floor. And the brake lights came on AND The cars behind me almost rear ended me. And it did it for no reason at all except for a shadow on the road”

Tesla Fanbois on TMC: “ but that wasn’t the actual brake pads touching the rotors. It was regen so it doesn’t count as braking. Thus it’s all in your mind”

 

[sleepydoc]

But it isn’t true. The safety score is not affected when you are driving on auto

I'm on FSD beta so I haven't dealt with the safety score in a couple of months, but as I recall Auto Pilot doesn't count but cruise control does, so if you have the car on cruise and it's following too closely or brakes you get dinged. The braking was hard to determine, though since the algorithm/sensors were incredibly sensitive and I had 'hard braking' events that I never thought twice about.

Got video? None of the videos I have ever seen show this.

No, most of the time I drive alone and I never use my phone in the car.

 

[SpaceKat]

I don't think Tesla can go and solve phantom braking in specific areas or anything, it's likely more about constantly training the system to better recognize what is and isn't a threat

I have been following this issue for several months, here, on YouTube, and on Reddit. There is plenty of video evidence, and it seems to be happening enough to make people trade in their vehicles. Even reviewers acknowledge the phantom braking problem.

It is quite possible that the problem happens much less or much more mildly than I have been led to believe, but I am uncomfortable betting on it. I just received my M3, and I'm honestly afraid to engage TACC unless there is no one behind me. Needless to say, it won't be a quite as relaxing to have to monitor traffic behind me, but TACC will have to earn my trust before I feel comfortable using it.

Yes, I knew I was potentially taking delivery of an expensive vehicle without usable cruise control!

I do think the problem is fixable, but probably not in the way Tesla is trying to fix it today. I suspect Tesla plans to solve the problem by fixing FSD. As I understand it, they are using the FSD stack for TACC, so fixing FSD fixes TACC as a freebie. And, if they were really going to delivery FSD in a few months, this might be a viable strategy.

Unfortunately, Tesla has delusional expectations about solving FSD this year. IMO, they might be a decade away from training neural nets to drive a car reliably with vision-only.

The alternative strategy would be for Tesla to write some procedural (non-neural) code to put guard rails on TACC and AEB, and drastically cut down on phantom braking, albeit at the cost of some neural intelligence. They could probably write such a procedural fix in just a few weeks.

The recent NHTSA and WaPo attention is just the beginning. Tesla will have to figure out how much of their reputation and stock price they want to gamble on an FSD-first strategy before implementing a procedural hack for TACC. Maybe the NHTSA inquiry will get them to address the problem more directly.

Like many others, I would welcome a dumb cruise control option, but it is difficult to see how they could implement that without confusing customers or poisoning consumers against autonomous driving.

 

[rxlawdude]

You do realize that the Verge reporter (Andrew Hawkins) only writes anti-Tesla articles? His bias is so blatant I can only assume he sold Tesla short at some point.

And don't forget about the LA Times auto reporter, Russ Mitchell. He's been bad mouthing Tesla since they didn't give him a Model X to review on his timetable.
He then told me that Teslas (this was in the S and X days) are too expensive. Yet he frequently reviews $150K cars with nary a concern about cost.

 

[enemji]

Well, you're also contradicting yourself, so either you're confused, flip-flopping or just being a troll. my guess is troll (mainly because of the hair)

I am letting you know that what people do in real life is not what autopilot will do. At least not when safety is paramount.

It seems you are smart but will feign stupidity….

 

[OncomingStorm]

I have been following this issue for several months, here, on YouTube, and on Reddit. There is plenty of video evidence, and it seems to be happening enough to make people trade in their vehicles. Even reviewers acknowledge the phantom braking problem.

It is quite possible that the problem happens much less or much more mildly than I have been led to believe, but I am uncomfortable betting on it. I just received my M3, and I'm honestly afraid to engage TACC unless there is no one behind me. Needless to say, it won't be a quite as relaxing to have to monitor traffic behind me, but TACC will have to earn my trust before I feel comfortable using it.

i'm not saying no one ever has issues but its very situational and those that have problems often dont understand why and create a big stink so the problem seems much more prevalent than it is. in my experience there is really only 1 situation where i wont use autopilot (i rarely use TACC alone) and thats when i'm on a two lane road with oncoming traffic and even then really only in tight situations with lots of traffic (where one probably shouldn't be using cruse control and the like anyway). but aside from that i use autopilot everyday with zero issues, mostly in city with traffic lights and the whole deal (yes even using it on 2 lane roads when traffic is light), honestly its so good i often find my mind drifting off and have to snap myself back into the fact that i'm driving lol.

and i'm not blind to what people call phantom breaking, it happens, but it's always a reaction to something like a turn signal, break light, someone creeping onto the road or moving at a stop or simply drifting into your lane. but i've never experienced a breaking event of more than 5mph or so (yes it can feel kind of jolting if you are not paying attention / expecting it but hardly a major issue). and those are super rare (ignoring obvious things like people pulling out in front of you) maybe 1 time per 6-700 miles or thereabouts and 99% while city driving, AP rocks it on the highway.

all of that to say, use your car, at least give it a chance haha, always pay attention and use its features properly but its a hell of a product at the end of the day.

 

[Big Dog]

Just to check, I asked 4 or 5 different people at work today if they slow down when approaching a truck on a 2 lane highway. They all looked at me like I was crazy and asked "no, why would I do that?"

I never knew that slowing down for an oncoming truck was a thing. When I've been on the open road and someone slows in front of me, I just assumed that they were not paying attention and their speed slipped. It never occurred to me that the slowing was intentional.

 

[OncomingStorm]

I never knew that slowing down for an oncoming truck was a thing. When I've been on the open road and someone slows in front of me, I just assumed that they were not paying attention and their speed slipped. It never occurred to me that the slowing was intentional.

i'd aruge everyone changes their behavior in the face of an oncoming semi, whether you know it or not. we all know big trucks take up lots of lane and often ride the center line not to mention the wake they cause, if you pass too closely to a semi, it can actually cause you to loose control under the right conditions. i think its fairly safe to say unless you have a decently wide gap between you and the semi / truck you are going to at a minimum move to the outside of the lane and most likely shave a few mph off just to make sure you have the most control should something happen (again this happens in seconds and because of the way ppl drive just "happens" but obv the driver is doing it). keep in mind we are strictly talking about narrow 2 lane highways with oncoming traffic at reasonably high speeds (60mph +).... just imho

 

[enemji]

Just to check, I asked 4 or 5 different people at work today if they slow down when approaching a truck on a 2 lane highway. They all looked at me like I was crazy and asked "no, why would I do that?"

Here is another hypothetical situation. You are approaching a traffic light and there is no one ahead of you. The traffic light is green for you.
Will you slow down as you approach and pass through or will you maintain or even speed up going through it?

 

[OncomingStorm]

I don’t want my adaptive cruise control to slow down when it approaches another vehicle. Real drivers actually speed up when they get closer as they get into the draft and then swing across lanes and pass them by.

Here is another hypothetical situation. You are approaching a traffic light and there is no one ahead of you. The traffic light is green for you.
Will you slow down as you approach and pass through or will you maintain or even speed up going through it?

i bet you freak the crap out of a whole lot of people haha

 

[sleepydoc]

i'd aruge everyone changes their behavior in the face of an oncoming semi, whether you know it or not. we all know big trucks take up lots of lane and often ride the center line not to mention the wake they cause, if you pass too closely to a semi, it can actually cause you to loose control under the right conditions. i think its fairly safe to say unless you have a decently wide gap between you and the semi / truck you are going to at a minimum move to the outside of the lane and most likely shave a few mph off just to make sure you have the most control should something happen (again this happens in seconds and because of the way ppl drive just "happens" but obv the driver is doing it). keep in mind we are strictly talking about narrow 2 lane highways with oncoming traffic at reasonably high speeds (60mph +).... just imho

If you're passing a truck and not using cruise control (or if your cruise control is a bit slow to respond like it is on our Odyssey,) the increased wind resistance caused by the draft of the truck will cause your car to slow down a bit so that may be what you're noticing. That's a different situation than driving towards an oncoming truck in the opposite lane, though.

You may be right about people slowing down/moving over. I don't consciously move over, but then you always make sure that you have enough space between you and oncoming traffic, so if any vehicle is hugging the center line you'll move over. Trucks will typically be closer simply because they're wider.

 

[qdeathstar]

I'm on FSD beta so I haven't dealt with the safety score in a couple of months, but as I recall Auto Pilot doesn't count but cruise control does, so if you have the car on cruise and it's following too closely or brakes you get dinged. The braking was hard to determine, though since the algorithm/sensors were incredibly sensitive and I had 'hard braking' events that I never thought twice about.

You are contradicting yourself. On one hand the car “slams on the breaks” affecting the safety score and the next the algorithm was incredibly sensitive….

No, most of the time I drive alone and I never use my phone in the car.

The car has cameras built into it bro…

 

[qdeathstar]

Tesla owner/driver: “my Tesla slowed on its own while on autopilot/FSDfrom 60mph to 35mph in less than 2 seconds AND it startled my passengers in the car at the time and everything from the backseat was thrown to the floor. And the brake lights came on AND The cars behind me almost rear ended me. And it did it for no reason at all except for a shadow on the road”

Tesla Fanbois on TMC: “ but that wasn’t the actual brake pads touching the rotors. It was regen so it doesn’t count as braking. Thus it’s all in your mind”

Not what anyone said. I said slowing down from 60 to 45 over two second isn’t dangerous and yet anyone paying at least a little attention should be able to react in about one second…

 

[sleepydoc]

You are contradicting yourself. On one hand the car “slams on the breaks” affecting the safety score and the next the algorithm was incredibly sensitive….

No, the 'safe driving' algorithm was sensitive, meaning taking turns at what most people would consider a normal speed would often trigger a 'hard turn' alert, and even moderate braking (such as what one would do when a light turns yellow) would trigger a hard braking alert/penalty.

The car has cameras built into it bro…

Well, to be honest I've never even used them. Regardless seeing how hard a car is braking based on a dash cam is pretty difficult anyway. the best way is to see how far the passengers fly forward.

 

[qdeathstar]

Well, to be honest I've never even used them. Regardless seeing how hard a car is braking based on a dash cam is pretty difficult anyway. the best way is to see how far the passengers fly forward.

I’ve had phantom breaking before but unless my passengers were twerking down the highway I’ve never had them fly out of their seat….

 

[sleepydoc]

Not what anyone said. I said slowing down from 60 to 45 over two second isn’t dangerous and yet anyone paying at least a little attention should be able to react in about one second…

It doesn’t slam on the breaks. It lets it foot off the accelerator and regen kicks in. There is plenty of time to react, at least in the videos I seen.

I thought we were talking about imaginary breaking… while the car is phantom breaking you should be able to instantly discern a real threat if one exists.