Phantom Braking

[mswlogo]

Either way it has nothing to do with phantom braking. I've noticed AP/FSD will start to brake if a car is approaching from the side a a high enough speed that it doesn't appear it will stop, but that's not 'phantom' braking, that's just accident avoidance. By definition, phantom braking is braking at inappropriate times with no clear reason making it uncomfortable, annoying and potentially dangerous, depending on the situation.

I drove 2 ½ hours to our cabin yesterday and had several episodes. The first was on the interstate. I was in the right lane driving 70. It was a clear day and there were no cars for several hundred feet ahead of me. A car was passing on my left, probably going about 75. About the time it entered by blind spot the car suddenly slowed down about 10 MPH. It was hard enough that my wife and I swayed forward and the dogs sat up in the back seat to see what was happening. Because driving 15 MPH slower than everyone on the freeway is not safe I didn't wait to see how far it would go and took over.

I had several other incidents where it would randomly slow down for no reason. Sometimes just a couple MPH, sometimes more. Never for any discernible reason.

Early on Phantom braking was pretty bad.

It has got better over time, it used to brake for absolutely no apparent reason. Now most of the time it appears to have a reason, not always an appropriate one. So now I can anticipate the nonsense reasons and avoid them most of the time. And occasionally, it's RIGHT

But after a while I realized it's not quite as bad as it feels. Interestingly I have never been honked at or hit because of phantom braking. Turns out it's only dropping 5-10mph (most of the time) but it does it INSTANTLY. So it feels like it slammed on the brakes to the driver (and passengers) but to other drivers behind you it's not as bad as it feels. So over time I just don't worry and my reflex is just to tap the throttle.

So overall I don't get so upset about it. I hope it continues to improve. It took a long time to deal with it and can understand why some are so upset about it. It's leaning towards the cautious side. You have not heard of Tesla's driving under trucks lately.

I can't stand driving my wife's car without it.

 

[Yelobird]

Early on Phantom braking was pretty bad.

It has got better over time, it used to brake for absolutely no apparent reason. Now most of the time it appears to have a reason, not always an appropriate one. So now I can anticipate the nonsense reasons and avoid them most of the time. And occasionally, it's RIGHT

But after a while I realized it's not quite as bad as it feels. Interestingly I have never been honked at or hit because of phantom braking. Turns out it's only dropping 5-10mph (most of the time) but it does it INSTANTLY. So it feels like it slammed on the brakes to the driver (and passengers) but to other drivers behind you it's not as bad as it feels. So over time I just don't worry and my reflex is just to tap the throttle.

So overall I don't get so upset about it. I hope it continues to improve. It took a long time to deal with it and can understand why some are so upset about it. It's leaning towards the cautious side. You have not heard of Tesla's driving under trucks lately.

I can't stand driving my wife's car without it.

Well said and basically my position as well. Problem is there are roughly a dozen individuals on the forum that love to constantly fuel the fire or FUD with exaggerated views like “slammed on the brakes!!!” Vs the reality “ the car random slowed” or my favorite “it stopped violently” vs “it slowed down”. I personally see it as occasional random deceleration vs Phantom Death stop as the random group like to portray it. If this was Phantom Acceleration I might have an issue but being overly cautious with new to beta drivers is fine by me. I am certain in time they will continue to refine the software so the masses can move onto some new hate topic.

 

[Ramphex]

except they don't

That's the fact you keep refusing to admit despite mountains of evidence.

every brand has problems with phantom braking and assisted cruise systems






They do.

In fact for actual capabilities and performance Consumer Reports rated Teslas autopilot #1 in the industry.

(then, since they're CR and dislike Tesla, they knocked down the "overall" score because Tesla didn't do enough driver monitoring.... of course once Tesla fixed THAT with a free OTA update CR didn't like THAT either, bringing up privacy concerns despite having asked for the feature)


View attachment 764173

Google search “phantom braking issues” oddly enough I can’t find any articles about any other brands

 

[ohmman]

Google search “phantom braking issues” oddly enough I can’t find any articles about any other brands

Terms like "phantom braking" and "TACC" are mostly Tesla-specific. I found other articles by searching for "adaptive cruise" and "unintentional braking" or "surprise braking", etc. Search terms matter on this one.

 

[Sporty]

Well said and basically my position as well. Problem is there are roughly a dozen individuals on the forum that love to constantly fuel the fire or FUD with exaggerated views like “slammed on the brakes!!!” Vs the reality “ the car random slowed” or my favorite “it stopped violently” vs “it slowed down”. I personally see it as occasional random deceleration vs Phantom Death stop as the random group like to portray it. If this was Phantom Acceleration I might have an issue but being overly cautious with new to beta drivers is fine by me. I am certain in time they will continue to refine the software so the masses can move onto some new hate topic.

As the driver it’s surprising when it happens. But I’m paying attention and pretty (now) know it’s probably a fake event. However on any drive I have my wife with me it’s much more jarring for her. She’s not paying attention to the road like the drive is and immediately gets upset at the even, then the car feature, …. Basically it has to be shut off. Shut off for any long road trip we are doing together. This makes it a not useful feature for me.

I get that cruise control in the car is beta but I don’t want cruise control to be beta quality. I want something I can use (while on a road trip with my wife).

I’m fine with some of the beta features but it’s past time that Telsa should focus on some of the basic features and make them usable. And they should dial the quality of that in with automated testing. Eg reduce the regressions on some of the more-done features.

 

[Yelobird]

As the driver it’s surprising when it happens. But I’m paying attention and pretty (now) know it’s probably a fake event. However on any drive I have my wife with me it’s much more jarring for her. She’s not paying attention to the road like the drive is and immediately gets upset at the even, then the car feature, …. Basically it has to be shut off. Shut off for any long road trip we are doing together. This makes it a not useful feature for me.

I get that cruise control in the car is beta but I don’t want cruise control to be beta quality. I want something I can use (while on a road trip with my wife).

I’m fine with some of the beta features but it’s past time that Telsa should focus on some of the basic features and make them usable. And they should dial the quality of that in with automated testing. Eg reduce the regressions on some of the more-done features.

Sounds like a wife issue? JK! Well as you recently ordered a New Tesla your clearly not that dissatisfied so here’s hoping your new ride works better for you.

 

[Xdama]

Terms like "phantom braking" and "TACC" are mostly Tesla-specific. I found other articles by searching for "adaptive cruise" and "unintentional braking" or "surprise braking", etc. Search terms matter on this one.

Adaptive cruise on any car is the spawn of the devil

 

[Xdama]

Yeah, that's basically a system specifically for traffic jams, and gives you an idea how much more restrictive the EU tends to be on this stuff compared to the US, where it'd be legal today to roll out a fully L5 system in half a dozen US states if anybody had one.

Weird cut off they use though- I guess it'll beep at you if you go over 37 or something so you know you need to pay attention again?

Traffic jams and slow moving traffic or restricted speed limits are the norm on UK motorways now. Should really be renamed to cone parks in a lot of instances

 

[EVRider-FL]

Phantom braking, for those that experience it, happens with TACC with or without Autosteer, so it could happen with basic AP. Radar vs. vision only is another factor that might cause more or less phantom braking. It hasn't been an issue for me personally, in either my Model S or 3, both 2018 and both with FSD (not the City Streets Beta). I'm not saying it never happens, but not frequently as some others have reported.

 

[2101Guy]

Yep, happens with AP. Under overpasses on a sunny day or along highways on a sunny day where trees in the median or on the sides of the highway casts shadows. The "superior" vision only seem to think the shadows are objects on the road

 

[sleepydoc]

But after a while I realized it's not quite as bad as it feels. Interestingly I have never been honked at or hit because of phantom braking. Turns out it's only dropping 5-10mph (most of the time) but it does it INSTANTLY. So it feels like it slammed on the brakes to the driver (and passengers) but to other drivers behind you it's not as bad as it feels. So over time I just don't worry and my reflex is just to tap the throttle.

I personally see it as occasional random deceleration vs Phantom Death stop as the random group like to portray it. If this was Phantom Acceleration I might have an issue but being overly cautious with new to beta drivers is fine by me.

a dozen individuals on the forum that love to constantly fuel the fire or FUD with exaggerated views like “slammed on the brakes!!!” Vs the reality “ the car random slowed”

There are reports of the brakes locking up and ABS kicking in as well as reports of the car simply slowing down. No one is claiming that it's always one or the other. In most cases, as @mswlogo and @Sporty say, it feels significant and is at best disconcerting to passengers in the car. I agree it's better than phantom throttle would be, but that's a pretty low bar and still not acceptable, IMO.

My question is, why are you just willing to accept this? Why is it Ok for Tesla's adaptive cruise control to perform significantly worse than every other system on the market?

 

[enemji]

My question is, why are you just willing to accept this? Why is it Ok for Tesla's adaptive cruise control to perform significantly worse than every other system on the market?

Tesla did not succeed by simply doing what others have been doing for the last 50 years.

It is great to provide feedback in its learning and growth, and be part of the future. If you want the others legacy technology, I am sure nobody is putting a gun to your head to not do that. Or is there somebody?

 

[sleepydoc]

Tesla did not succeed by simply doing what others have been doing for the last 50 years.

It is great to provide feedback in its learning and growth, and be part of the future. If you want the others legacy technology, I am sure nobody is putting a gun to your head to not do that. Or is there somebody?

Sorry - that's the lamest excuse I've heard. Adaptive cruise control has been available and works perfectly in mainstream cars for at least 10 years. Aside from braking unnecessarily, what is Tesla doing with adaptive cruise control that Toyota wasn't doing 10 years ago? I don't care if the technology is new or 'legacy.' I want technology that works.

 

[Yelobird]

There are reports of the brakes locking up and ABS kicking in as well as reports of the car simply slowing down. No one is claiming that it's always one or the other. In most cases, as @mswlogo and @Sporty say, it feels significant and is at best disconcerting to passengers in the car. I agree it's better than phantom throttle would be, but that's a pretty low bar and still not acceptable, IMO.

My question is, why are you just willing to accept this? Why is it Ok for Tesla's adaptive cruise control to perform significantly worse than every other system on the market?

Because I have no issue with cruise control? I drive a lot for work and have few if any issues. On FSD beta on occasion it will reduce speed Rarely on questionable side streets but Nothing like you and a few others make it out to be. On AP I can all but take a nap Every drive.

 

[rjpjnk]

There are reports of the brakes locking up and ABS kicking in as well as reports of the car simply slowing down. No one is claiming that it's always one or the other.

In my case that I reported here a couple months ago it was the former. The car definitely locked up the breaks as started to rotate slightly before recovering as if nothing happened. I was informed that this is not called phantom braking since it was an activation of the AEB system and not AP. I was driving manually at the time. No AP or TACC active. It scared the crap out of me. Hasn’t happened since. A truck was passing in the opposite direction on a two lane highway at night.

 

[Alset2]

I do a lot of lurking here but rarely post. I am very grateful for all the wisdom (and entertainment) that I get here so thank you all.
After typing this I got a little long winded, skip to the bottom to get to my point.

I am a car guy and have had many cars over the years, many with TACC, and I have never had the "slowing down" issue (lest I call it Phantom Braking) that happen with my MS.
Once upon a time I was an ASE certified Master Tech (back when there were only 8 certs to get the master) and drivability / diagnostic were my forte' (meaning I would find the problem EVEN if a "code" was not present).
I give this brief background to support that I am also fairly good at looking at things objectively, especially about cars.
I also love my Tesla(s) and understand that I signed up to help Beta test one of the most amazing ideas of my life time...a car that drives it self. I am also quite impressed with the the technology and understand where we are in its development... so I am able to take these issues in stride .


This thread has intrigued me though, so today I had to make a short trip (About 60 miles one way) so I took a friend along that has never experienced FSD beta at all and does not really care that much about cars in general, let alone Tesla.

I briefly explained the braking issue and asked him to record every time the car "slowed down" inappropriately in his estimation.
We took the same route both ways and it was over cast (no sun shining and no shadows on the roads). All roads were 2 lane, well marked roads and mostly highways.
In 59 miles (on the way there) my care drove door to door with 3 interventions all acceptable to me (construction zones) and had ,by my friends count, 111 "slow downs".
On the way back I only engaged AP the last 45 miles and he counted 129 "slow downs" .
I asked him to do this because I was wondering if I was blowing it out of proportion in my mind because I am so acutely aware of it. Now being as objective as I can, thats a lot!

Now I am not posting this to argue or anything like that, I am just posting one, very un scientific experiment done by some one who really loves his Tesla's and the idea of being a small part in the infancy of self driving vehicles.
I have other insights that I kept track of during this trip but this post has already got long enough and I do not want to go on and on unless some one is interested...lol

Thanks for reading.

 

[2101Guy]

In my case that I reported here a couple months ago it was the former. The car definitely locked up the breaks as started to rotate slightly before recovering as if nothing happened. I was informed that this is not called phantom braking since it was an activation of the AEB system and not AP. I was driving manually at the time. No AP or TACC active. It scared the crap out of me. Hasn’t happened since. A truck was passing in the opposite direction on a two lane highway at night.

And if all of this would have occurred while you were on FSD? It absolutely would have negatively impacted your scoring (despite what the stans say).

 

[2101Guy]

I do a lot of lurking here but rarely post. I am very grateful for all the wisdom (and entertainment) that I get here so thank you all.
After typing this I got a little long winded, skip to the bottom to get to my point.

I am a car guy and have had many cars over the years, many with TACC, and I have never had the "slowing down" issue (lest I call it Phantom Braking) that happen with my MS.
Once upon a time I was an ASE certified Master Tech (back when there were only 8 certs to get the master) and drivability / diagnostic were my forte' (meaning I would find the problem EVEN if a "code" was not present).
I give this brief background to support that I am also fairly good at looking at things objectively, especially about cars.
I also love my Tesla(s) and understand that I signed up to help Beta test one of the most amazing ideas of my life time...a car that drives it self. I am also quite impressed with the the technology and understand where we are in its development... so I am able to take these issues in stride .


This thread has intrigued me though, so today I had to make a short trip (About 60 miles one way) so I took a friend along that has never experienced FSD beta at all and does not really care that much about cars in general, let alone Tesla.

I briefly explained the braking issue and asked him to record every time the car "slowed down" inappropriately in his estimation.
We took the same route both ways and it was over cast (no sun shining and no shadows on the roads). All roads were 2 lane, well marked roads and mostly highways.
In 59 miles (on the way there) my care drove door to door with 3 interventions all acceptable to me (construction zones) and had ,by my friends count, 111 "slow downs".
On the way back I only engaged AP the last 45miles and he counted 129 "slow downs" .
I asked him to do this because I was wondering if I was blowing it out of proportion in my mind because I am so acutely aware of it. Now being as objective as I can, thats a lot!

Now I am not posting this to argue or anything like that, I am just posting one, very un scientific experiment done by some one who really loves his Tesla's and the idea of being a small part in the infancy of self driving vehicles.
I have other insights that I kept track of during this trip but this post has already got long enough and I do not want to go on and on unless some one is interested...lol

Thanks for reading.

Only 200+ phantom braking events during that drive? It’s actually much lower than the average

 

[clydeiii]

Sorry - that's the lamest excuse I've heard. Adaptive cruise control has been available and works perfectly in mainstream cars for at least 10 years. Aside from braking unnecessarily, what is Tesla doing with adaptive cruise control that Toyota wasn't doing 10 years ago? I don't care if the technology is new or 'legacy.' I want technology that works.

They're making it vision-only and powered by artificial intelligence. It might work worse right now, but one day it will work much better than Toyota's ever will.

 

[sckor]

They're making it vision-only and powered by artificial intelligence. It might work worse right now, but one day it will work much better than Toyota's ever will.

One of these years Elon will be right. 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022?

My expectations reading all of the rave reviews of Tesla's autonomous driving features had me excited about the prospect of getting to use them myself. I had been planning to take it on a long road trip here in Canada, but the majority of the roads I'd be on would be 2 lane, non-divided highways. So not going to happen - I have no interest in holding the accelerator pedal for the majority of a 1600 mile trip.

TACC is by far the most disappointing thing about my vision only 2021 MY. I so wish I could opt-out of the "beta" status and have it give me dumb cruise control.