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Phantom Braking

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Ofcourse now everyone can sell all the cars they make - but Tesla has to continuously improve on phantom braking - which we know they are trying to. No easy fixes here ... They are now probably chasing "9s" - no "low hanging fruits" anymore.
Tesla's response to the NHTSA might be along those lines, and the regulators might accept it. And the regulators can accept that, then a consumer protection group like the Center for Auto Safety can disagree after other complaints from owners and put renewed pressure on the regulator -- that's exactly what happened in the case with Nissan Rogues that Knightshade has been referencing.
 
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Tesla's response to the NHTSA might be along those lines, and the regulators might accept it. And the regulators can accept that, then a consumer protection group like the Center for Auto Safety can disagree after other complaints from owners and put renewed pressure on the regulator -- that's exactly what happened in the case with Nissan Rogues that Knightshade has been referencing.
Irrespective of what NHTSA or lobbyists want to do - if that is the state of the art, it can't easily be improved.

It is stupid to ask someone to change something because it is not perfect when the alternative is worse (no AEB).

Infact I was every car to have AEB mandatorily. In 2022 it makes zero sense for cars to hit anything. There would be tremendous savings in terms of life, limp & property. May be people also learn to drive at a safer distance because AEB could kick in anytime.
 
Irrespective of what NHTSA or lobbyists want to do - if that is the state of the art, it can't easily be improved.

It is stupid to ask someone to change something because it is not perfect when the alternative is worse (no AEB).

Infact I was every car to have AEB mandatorily. In 2022 it makes zero sense for cars to hit anything. There would be tremendous savings in terms of life, limp & property. May be people also learn to drive at a safer distance because AEB could kick in anytime.
The system seems to be working much better in the 2020 Tesla models, so I can imagine the solution could be installing radar in the vehicles when available if the regulator isn't satisfied with the pace of improvement in 2021> models that appear to be generating the huge uptick in complaints.

Assuming that's the root cause anyways, I'm just speculating. But we can be sure the NHTSA also does not want to put unreasonable financial strain on the company in solving the problem, they'll work towards whatever reasonably solves the issues for the least cost.
 
I think Tesla is basically on a wild goose chase with computers being able to safely drive in all scenarios. Never gonna happen IMHO.
Oh - except for one thing. Computers will be able to drive safely if there are only other computers driving - humans not allowed - driving or walking or otherwise being in the same areas with autonomous cars. This is what i constantly warn about. Tesla has made it clear that humans driving manually is undesirable. At some point in the future they will actively lobby to exclude humans from driving - limited areas at first, with gradual expansion. Could be soon, or could be far away in the future. That's the only way to achieve true autonomous driving.
 
The system seems to be working much better in the 2020 Tesla models, so I can imagine the solution could be installing radar in the vehicles when available if the regulator isn't satisfied with the pace of improvement in 2021> models that appear to be generating the huge uptick in complaints.

Assuming that's the root cause anyways, I'm just speculating. But we can be sure the NHTSA also does not want to put unreasonable financial strain on the company in solving the problem, they'll work towards whatever reasonably solves the issues for the least cost.
Tesla must be having pretty good data on phantom braking in radar and vision cars. It is possible the vision only is worse - but I won't rule out that it is just different i.e. vision cars PB at different things than radar ones. So, people who were used to radar braking are not happy with vision PB.

To me the bottom-line is
- Is reducing/solving PB a high priority for Tesla ? Definitely so.
- Is Tesla spending enough resources on solving this ? I bet they do (within limits of all others they are trying to solve).
- Are they spending enough money to solve this ? Yes - the only constraint with FSD/AP team is hiring enough good engineers.

So - what exactly is "putting more pressure" going to achieve ? Just distraction for the team - instead of working on engineering problems, they would be working on PR issues. The only winners are lobbyists, concern trolls and competitors / pro-global warming companies. Not Tesla customers.
 
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I don't know - you really think so? Maybe a computer can out perform a human in every category except one - acting just like a human? I still say driving just like a human is required. I think Tesla is basically on a wild goose chase with computers being able to safely drive in all scenarios. Never gonna happen IMHO.
i'm gonna be biased as i've spent my life in IT, but with ever fiber of my being i will tell you with no uncertainty that we will eventually get there. the problem with programing, esp something like this, is early versions will look wildly out of sync with what it should be but as time goes on and more and more situation specific intelligence is added, as well as general "awareness", we'll reach a tipping point where you wont be able to tell AI from human drivers. 100% guaranteed, just a matter of time (again how much time is completely open for debate haha)
 
In my 2017 S, phantom braking is a HUGE problem since the radar was dropped and I enrolled in the FSD Beta program. Phantom braking was a rare event before going to FSD Beta. Now I can't use CC or FSD at night at all because the car freaks out every time a car's headlights appear on the road. During the day time the phantom braking is only an occasional annoyance, perhaps only happening every 1/2 hr or so on road trips. At night though, it's every 30 seconds.

Neither the VW Atlas nor the Toyota Camry that I rented last month had any issues dealing with traffic in either daylight or at night. Tesla needs to come clean and admit they have a MAJOR software bug.
 
And with that, I think we are approaching consensus, at least from my perspective. Phantom slowdowns in TACC/AP/NOA occur fairly regularly in Teslas. They are not overly dangerous, but they are annoying to the driver, passengers, and the car(s) behind the Tesla. Tesla should work diligently to eliminate this phenomenon as much as possible so that its TACC is in line with that of other manufacturers.

Phantom braking in AEB collision avoidance - the kind that throws the driver forward with enough force to lock the seatbelt and cause physical discomfort - has been reported by some drivers, but most of us have never experienced it. It is dangerous when it occurs, but it is relatively rare. If it has not been corrected yet (and I don't think we know the answer to this), then Tesla should take it very seriously and fix it.

Here is a report that appears to describe the latter:
YES! this is exactly correct, adding @AndreP 's point that the annoyance can tend to make people avoid using the system altogether.

So...on most cars using adaptive cruise control your foot has to hover over the brake..but on a Tesla your foot hovers over the accelerator...is that fair?
Well, half correct. I've never felt the need to have my foot hover over the brake in any other car I've driven w/adaptive cruise but I definitely keep my foot over the accelerator in my MY. The fact that I have to do that says something, too.
 
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So...on most cars using adaptive cruise control your foot has to hover over the brake..but on a Tesla your foot hovers over the accelerator...is that fair?
No. Hovering over the brake is not necessary. I can see events approaching and can hover over the brake only when needed. The phantom braking happens at random intervals and practically throws your head into the windshield much more quickly than you can react to press the accelerator. It also screams at you too.
 
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In my 2017 S, phantom braking is a HUGE problem since the radar was dropped and I enrolled in the FSD Beta program. Phantom braking was a rare event before going to FSD Beta. Now I can't use CC or FSD at night at all because the car freaks out every time a car's headlights appear on the road. During the day time the phantom braking is only an occasional annoyance, perhaps only happening every 1/2 hr or so on road trips. At night though, it's every 30 seconds.
That looks like an anomaly. You should get it to service ...

On my radar 3, I've no more PBs than earlier. No problem at all with night driving.
 
Are you in the FSD Beta program with the radar disabled?


I am- and have never experienced the sort of neck-snapping braking you describe either before or after joining said program, regardless of time of day.

Highway driving still uses legacy (albeit vision only) code and hasn't seemed different at all.

Local roads initial FSD would have minor 5-10 mph slowdowns sometimes from cresting hills or oncoming traffic.... more recent versions those are more like 1-3 mph slowdowns.
 
So...on most cars using adaptive cruise control your foot has to hover over the brake..but on a Tesla your foot hovers over the accelerator...is that fair?
to be fair i wouldn't hover my foot over the break while using adaptive cruise control... UNLESS it was in a high risk situation then i absolutely might, similarly with tesla and its go peddle since i never really experience braking outside of high density situations.
 
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FWIW some user a year or more ago in one of the threads actually tested this with a g-meter, and found all his phantom braking was about 0.2g of deceleration.

Which is....basically just regen- no actual "braking"

Which seemed to confirm the issue is less OMG IT IS DANGEROUS and more "People unused to EVs are constantly surprised by any slowdown OR speedup they didn't know was coming because the usual clues from an ICE vehicle aren't present"

Sadly I meant to bookmark the post and didn't, and the search feature is....not great.... so wasn't able to find it again. If anyone does happen to have a link it'd be great to repost it though.


Disclaimer: that doesn't mean this is the value in 100% of cases, a false AEB could well "slam" on the brakes, but that seems vastly more rare on Teslas.

That really doesn't tell us anything we don't already know because its such a limited dataset.

Tesla should upgrade the dashcam SW so everyone that has a Tesla with a Sentry/Dashcam Mode is able to overlay metadata (speed, accelerometer data, etc) onto the video image. That way when sharing video we can better convey what happened to the audience.

It's a way of removing the human interpretation.

Now some might argue that this will make Tesla look bad because then we'll have hundreds of videos showing light to moderate phantom braking (any deacceleration is technically braking even if its only wind resistance).

But, it helps Tesla at least from the NHTSA perspective to show the NHTSA that it's not false AEB activations. The false AEB activations are what gets things recalled. Annoying phantom braking will simply lead customers not to use/buy driver aids.
 
To me the bottom-line is
- Is reducing/solving PB a high priority for Tesla ? Definitely so.
- Is Tesla spending enough resources on solving this ? I bet they do (within limits of all others they are trying to solve).
- Are they spending enough money to solve this ? Yes - the only constraint with FSD/AP team is hiring enough good engineers.
PB has been an issue for 6+ years (per forum posts) and I have personal experience with it for almost 3 years now, so it is not new, and it has maybe improved a little (very little). Given that timeframe, IMHO Tesla is not devoting anywhere near enough resources to it, as they devote 99% of their resources towards the holy grail of FSD, which keeps moving farther and farther away, no matter what Elon promises.